Hi all,

Following my purchase of a 1971 Speedmaster last year, I am now looking to "expand my collection" and think that a Vintage Sub is what I would like to get.

Any help anyone can give to point me in the right direction much appreciated.

1. Budget wise I want to keep it reasonable and was thinking £4,000, or a bit more. Will I get one at that sort of money thats considered collectible?

2. What age do they become collectible / vintage? I have seen a few from 1980s, but thought really I need late 60s to early 70s?

3. Can they all be waterproofed? Ideall I want one that I can wear rgularly, but just want to know if its a watch you can swim with? (I think I know the answer will be no! - but is there a year after which they can be guaranteed for waterproofing)?


4. Is there a specific model I should go after - to get something a little special? The Red Writing version is out of my budget, but what about something like a “Meters first” model


3. If there are specific models I should go for, what kind of price should I aim to pay?


4. How important are box and papers?


5. Where is the best place to buy from - do you think the auctions are a good bet? Or is there a web site I should check?


6. I do want all original - but most people seem to say thats nearly impossible - you will always get service bezel inserts, crown, hands etc - is that true - or should I not worry too much if there are some replacement parts?

I have seen a few I like as far as patina is concerned, but from dealers, where I think the premium may be high. Also they were 80s. Also saw a Sea Dweller - is that a better buy, as it looks very similar (but was a bit beyond a top budget!)

Any help - always very much appreciated.

 

A no date two liner 14060 would be within your budget, if you're quick John Pye has a nice one at their Bond street auction tomorrow.
Current bid is £2500 +20% buyers premium.

 

That one does look nice - thank you for highlighting it.
And below my budget - do you have a view on it - is it all original / what year is it / would it be better to spend more for a rarer watch - or is this just a brilliant buy?
The hands look quite white - are they replacements?
Is there any danger it might be fake, or not have genuine workings - this auction seems to highlight that they cant be at all responsible for what they sell?
I work nearby, so can go and view tomorrow.
And what did you think of the watches above (which were all a lot more expensive)

 

I don't think any online auctioneers are going to guarantee that every watch they list is genuine , and you could write what I know about submariners on the back of a cornflake.
I was just giving you a pointer as you are UK based. I must admit though, I've been looking for a no date sub for a while and felt confident enough that this is the real deal that I put a bid on it myself.
Hammer price will probably be nearer £3500 any way, so maybe not such a bargain.
Maybe one of the Rolex guys here could take a look and give their thoughts?

 

Sounds to me like you need to gain a lot more knowledge before proceeding further, and simply answering your questions is not going to change that. Spend a few months reading different boards (some of which focus on vintage Rolex), try to put your hands on as many examples as possible, figure out what you like, search the market, and then maybe, just maybe, proceed. JMHO.

 

I think you are right - I spent almost a year before committing to the Speedmaster, but that was possibly overkill.
However - with that, at least I knew the model I was after, and narrowed it down to just a few years of production, and even then didn't get exactly what I was after (a straight writing version), but very happy with my purchase.
I could just do with a bit of direction - I didn't think I would be buying one this week, but if the one indicated by Dennisthemenace is a great buy - then I might be missing out on a perfect opportunity.
If someone could help with the questions, that would be a brilliant start for me.

 

Please be careful with John Pye's watch auction - these are ex-pawn brokers watches as a rule and often come with issues. I would never buy one from there without inspecting it (OK ... I did buy one from there without inspecting but that's a different story).

 

If you really want a matte dialed Sub, you are probably not going to be interested in the 14060, and you will probably need to up your budget a little bit.

 

I couldn't agree more, but usually they do point out any issues with the watch in their description.

 

Thanks Calalum - I am not too sure exactly what I do want. Hence all the questions.
Broadly a sub (or maybe the Sea dweller), that I can wear occasionally, is an investment - so will hopefully hold its value or better, and has a bit of a vintage look. Something a little bit special in some way too - i.e. a slightly rarer variant.
I can spend more but would rather keep the rice at what I feel is sensible. If the entry price for that kind of model is more, then I could go higher, but would rather not. Thats why the one at Pyes looked quite interesting - I have been looking for a few weeks, and not really seen any watch with that kind of patina at under £3000. But to be fair, I have mainly been up and down the likes of Burlington Arcade!
I did see a 1982 model with a Matt dial at a jewellers for £5700 - thats the one above one the cream table. And that did seem cheaper than any other of the early 80s, but is that a good buy?

 

You want someone to assess a watch as to whether it is a good buy with basically zero information? In general I would say that if the watch is FS at a jeweler's, or in the Burlington Arcade, it is not likely to be a good buy.

 

I know you are right.
I guess the problem is there are so many different types of Subs out there, I just don't know where to start.
I need pointing in a sensible direction, and then I can do my research so I know what to look for, and home in when the right one comes up.
I thought maybe a "Meters First" would be a good idea - one did come up in auction recently but I had barely even started looking. In retrospect that might have been a good one to go for - it went at £6,000 + commission, so £7,440 - I would have had to overbid, so would have cost more, but probably a good buy, as I have only seen one other that was double the price.
But if there is a different model to target, that won't cost as much, but has a similar exclusivity, that would be brilliant.
Just need some help.....

 

You are not being logical and seem to want to take shortcuts, which is probably not a good idea. Basing an opinion on whether something is a good deal solely on the price is nonsensical. There are vintage Subs that at $5,000 would be terrible deals and vintage Subs for $50,000 that would be steals. Why don't you head over to the vintage Rolex forum and start by looking through the dial archives as a place to start.

This thread is frustrating at this point so you should probably actually do some research.

 

Your entry point $$ will affect the model available.
The 1680's (after Red) white matte are available in the $6-7k+ range.
Another option you can look at is the transitional 16800, matte version, before they went to the white gold surround.
Once you get to the white gold surround, the prices level out in the $4-5k range, depending on condition, available accessories, and service history. You could look at 16800, 168000, and the 16610.
This does not discuss the No-date versions, version, of course..
Keep doing your homework and be patient, one will come along that will fit your needs..

 

Not to leave any stone unturned. Here is a great website about matte no date subs...
http://www.5513mattedial.com/About.html

 

Thanks - there is a lot to learn - thanks TTG for the pointers

 

You got good advice about price points but you say you want to swim with it. This always makes me nuts when I see vintage and swimming in the same post. Were I you then I'd buy a recent model with some warranty left then or save up for a new one.

 

I don't want to swim with it - just wanted to know if thats possible. I believe if I look at a later model you can - but understand that for earlier ones you should not - so won't be.

 

I'd say they are better than most vintage on rainy days but most are not fit for swimming anymore.

 

1960 Vintage = Gilt Chapter Ring dials, Plexi 4 digit references like 5512, 5508, 6536, 6538, 5510, 6546 are WAY out of your price range
1970 Vintage = matte dials, plexi 4 digit references. like 5512, 5513, 1680, 1675, 1665 are all out of your price range.
1980 Vintage = matte dial transitions with sapphire crystals, 5 digit references like the 16800, 16750 might be in your budget if they are beat to crap and need servicing.
1990 Vintage = Glossy dials with sapphire crystals like the 168000, 16610, 5513 will be in your price range. But IMHO are not vintage.

Good Luck.