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What light does it shed on.... (Speedy 2998 content)

stonestone
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When I saw the Sotheby’s watch with that bezel and no mention of it in the description I had pretty much the same reaction as the OP. People would expect more transparency from the top auction houses. The price fetched was low and maybe it reflected a discount for the bezel but who knows if the buyer knew what they were getting for their money.
 
ndgal
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Just an FYI to anyone who has not attended watch auctions or previews before;
In addition to the catalog, auction houses also have a super thick folder called "Condition Report" in which they delve into a much more detailed description of each and every lot. Any issues, and detailed cosmetic condition of the lots offered can be found there. (They can also e-mail interested bidders the detailed condition report in case one cannot attend the previews in person).

The lot descriptions in the auction catalogs rarely go into detail about issues, cosmetic condition, correct/incorrect parts etc...

I haven't seen the condition reports for the upcoming Phillips Geneva auction yet so I can't speak as to what is or isn't mentioned there, but just something to keep in mind before jumping to conclusions that auction houses are deliberately hiding information from bidders.
 
michael e
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I've bought many watches from auction houses with no mention anywhere about fake watches, miss-matched papers, missing parts or other faults so that doesn't apply to all auction houses.
Cheers, Michael
 
ndgal
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Well, of course the descriptions in the condition report are only limited to the auction house's staff expertise.
This is the reason why auction houses will always recommend to view the lots in person and do your own due diligence prior to bidding.
 
Rado63
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On this forum I see beginners asking for opinions on watches regarding condition and price. I always ask myself why are you spending money on an item that you are not familiar with and can not identify any defects? If you plan to buy watches at auctions, Then read the conditions of the sale. This an excerpt from those conditions. It does seem to read that if they do make statements in the catalog, they will stand behind it. But their statements are not an exhaustive evaluation. The buyer most first due his due diligence.


Phillips.JPG
 
abrod520
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ndgal ndgal
This is the reason why auction houses will always recommend to view the lots in person and do your own due diligence prior to bidding.

And yet they still expect you to pay their 25%+ premium. Charming
 
Tony C.
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Rado63 Rado63
The buyer most first due his due diligence.

That misses the central point. If auction houses are going to employ "experts", whose job it is to accurately assess and describe valuable objects which are to be sold, they should be held to a reasonable, minimum standard. In this case, there was an obvious and notable failure to identify a non-original watch.

Should buyers lazily assume that the auction house has done their due diligence for them? No, we agree on that. But the fact that they admit to possible errors in fine print is not sufficient to excuse gross negligence, except, perhaps, in a strict legal sense.
 
Rado63
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Tony C. Tony C.
That misses the central point. If auction houses are going to employ "experts", whose job it is to accurately assess and describe valuable objects which are to be sold, they should be held to a reasonable, minimum standard. In this case, there was an obvious and notable failure to identify a non-original watch.

Should buyers lazily assume that the auction house has done their due diligence for them? No, we agree on that. But the fact that they admit to possible errors in fine print is not sufficient to excuse gross negligence, except, perhaps, in a strict legal sense.


The auction house legal experts are employed to protect the auction house from misrepresenting a description. The auction relies upon the seller to provide the initial information. The employed experts protect the auction house. You , the buyer, protect yourself since this is just another "as is" sale. If a vintage watch dealer, not an auction, represents the piece and prices the piece accordingly , then they are assuming the responsibility to provide the due diligence on the piece which is why the price for this will be high for an amazing example, or the shortcomings of the piece will be listed the piece will be priced accordingly.
 
mac_omega
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Rado63 Rado63
The auction house legal experts are employed to protect the auction house from misrepresenting a description. The auction relies upon the seller to provide the initial information. The employed experts protect the auction house. You , the buyer, protect yourself since this is just another "as is" sale. If a vintage watch dealer, not an auction, represents the piece and prices the piece accordingly , then they are assuming the responsibility to provide the due diligence on the piece which is why the price for this will be high for an amazing example, or the shortcomings of the piece will be listed the piece will be priced accordingly.

If an auction house takes a high percentage commission and prides itself on having experts on their paylist, it is their obligation to provide accurate and complete descriptions and not omitting crucial facts about the watches. Otherwise it is monkey business and misleading potential buyers.
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stonestone
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Rado63 Rado63
The auction house legal experts are employed to protect the auction house from misrepresenting a description. The auction relies upon the seller to provide the initial information. The employed experts protect the auction house. You , the buyer, protect yourself since this is just another "as is" sale. If a vintage watch dealer, not an auction, represents the piece and prices the piece accordingly , then they are assuming the responsibility to provide the due diligence on the piece which is why the price for this will be high for an amazing example, or the shortcomings of the piece will be listed the piece will be priced accordingly.
That makes sense from the auction house's POV but it doesn't justify the 25% commission and the fact that buyers pay that premium because they are buying the seller, i.e. the auction house.
 
Tony C.
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Rado63 Rado63
The auction relies upon the seller to provide the initial information. The employed experts protect the auction house. You , the buyer, protect yourself since this is just another "as is" sale

The opinion of any employed "expert" should obviously supersede that of the seller's information. If the seller of the subject watch claimed full originality, and the expert assumed it to be true, then he is not fit for the position.

As for the experts protecting the auction house, that is only partly true. They also provide condition reports and descriptions of items, which are obviously relied upon by customers for at least a certain level of protection.
 
Rado63
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Tony C. Tony C.
The opinion of any employed "expert" should obviously supersede that of the seller's information. If the seller of the subject watch claimed full originality, and the expert assumed it to be true, then he is not fit for the position.

As for the experts protecting the auction house, that is only partly true. They also provide condition reports and descriptions of items, which are obviously relied upon by customers for at least a certain level of protection.


Go to the Auction house website and read the "conditions of sale." I presented a paragraph from their "conditions of sale." I didn't make up this information and I am not employed by the auction house. My contribution was in regard to the original poster who questioned why the auction house did not disclose in it's catalogue description what should be known by an expert regarding the completeness of a watch. The auction house presents a "condition of sale" document with each watch. I suggest each of you interested in watches at auction read the entire "conditions of sale" before you bid. I am a contributor of information to my fellow watch enthusiasts. The auction house has "conditions of sale" on their website. I neither agree, nor disagree with the auction house "conditions of sale" I only know these terms exist.
 
Tony C.
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Rado63 Rado63
Go to the Auction house website and read the "conditions of sale." I presented a paragraph from their "conditions of sale." I didn't make up this information and I am not employed by the auction house. My contribution was in regard to the original poster who questioned why the auction house did not disclose in it's catalogue description what should be known by an expert regarding the completeness of a watch. The auction house presents a "condition of sale" document with each watch. I suggest each of you interested in watches at auction read the entire "conditions of sale" before you bid. I am a contributor of information to my fellow watch enthusiasts. The auction house has "conditions of sale" on their website. I neither agree, nor disagree with the auction house "conditions of sale" I only know these terms exist

No one is suggesting that the auction house has a legal mandate to accurately describe items. Perhaps there are some people who are confused, but I am not one of them. What I, and others are saying, is that it is both disgraceful, and poor business practice, to present an expensive watch without mentioning obvious flaws that would clearly impact the perceived value were they to be known, and there is nothing in the "conditions of sale" that might exonerate Phillips for such an omission.
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keepsonticking
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In my opinion, auction houses, like every entity, are imperfect and are very likely to overlook a detail here and there that might be significant to the value of a given watch. It's hardly worth damaging their reputation and future business for Phillips to purposely provide false information or to omit important bits. You all know this, but it's worth a reminder: NO ONE can be an expert on every watch, every iteration, every era. Their experts are human. I could not begin to verify 99 percent of watches on the planet, but there are a few military watches and others that I know as well as anyone. To expect any "expert" from any house to catch every detail isn't realistic, in my opinion. The policy of the seller should be to take the watch back if there is found to be a serious issue with the description. Listings will rarely be perfect. Collecting their 25 percent is how they make their money. Without that, there would be no auction. Auctions without experts also charge fees. It's an imperfect world.
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