Went Through D-Day, The Battle of the Bulge, and a Concentration Camp

Jim Thoma · Nov 2, 2019

mac_omega
Jim, do not concentrate on "military" - as there are no issue markings it could well be a civilian version.
As far as I can decipher from the blurry photo it most likely reads 2319 - I am pretty sure it is a CK 2319

And if you do a google search several watches like your´s show up (various dials though but this is common as there are many dial variants):

https://www.google.at/search?hs=j2a&q=Omega 2319&tbm=isch&source=univ&client=opera&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi8ufP9wsvlAhUPqYsKHYNIBxQQsAR6BAgJEAE&biw=1560&bih=758

Try to provide a much clearer large in focus photo to confirm..

I put a chrome polish on the inside of the back cover. That photo is attached. It does appear to me that it is 2319. Oops I assumed that a case number would automatically identify a specific dial face. Here is the reason that I am almost certain that my father in law did not purchase the watch before he entered the army. The farm owner on which Jim's father sharecropped saw talent in the family. He made a deal that he would pay for Jim's college if he did three things in return. First he would have to repay the loan, secondly he would have to pay for his next oldest sibling to go to college. And lastly that sibling would have to repeat the process. Two pHDs, 1 MA, and two BAeD came out of that arrangement. He went to two years of Jr College followed by two years Cornell in which he would not have had any money to buy a watch. In 42 he was in the army and paying off the loads and putting his sisters through college.

The truth is I don't know when and where he got the watch. There is no photos of him with a watch until he was in France. So he could have purchased it while in Southern England in 1943. His captaincy dates from when he was sent by the army to the University of Chicago, which was very early in 1942. As a captain he would have be eligible to have a watch issued to him. And at the time it would have been as necessary to him to do his job as a rifle to me.

I don't know why Google did not give me the same results that you got for Omega 2319; likely I did not enter the same sequence or Google likes you better.

Jim Thoma · Nov 2, 2019

mac_omega
Here is a very similar watch of ref 2319, only the minute track is different (and hands of course):

You can see that your watch has also the correct crown!

Actually the face is also different; but it does have the same

gatorcpa
I think this is a Ref. 2319. Here is some information from Omega on the watch.

https://www.omegawatches.com/en-us/watch-omega-other-omega-mi-2319

From what I have read, the main difference between the 2318 and 2319 is the case size. The 2319 case is 37mm to 38mm in diameter. This was considered huge for a watch back then.

To my eyes, this doesn’t look like a military issued watch. Omega didn’t have a big presence in the US prior to WWII. Most sold here were cased in US made gold-filled or 14K watch cases. Military issued watches tend to have plain dials with large numerals and lots of radium for easy night vision. The US Army bought some watches from Omega after D-Day, but these were delivered in Europe.

It is possible that your father-in-law obtained the watch in the UK when stationed there? From your story and information from Omega, the year 1943 seems to line up perfectly.

Please listen to what @mac_omega has to say. He has written a book about these watches. My watchmaker (now retired) used to say that these older Omegas were so well made, they almost put themselves back together after servicing.

Hopefully you received a good local recommendation for a watchmaker in NE Tennessee. You have a wonderful time capsule of a watch there.
gatorcpa

crown. The second dial is all contained within the inner circle of the watch. The middle ring on the face contains all twelve Roman numbers with the bottom of the Roman numerals pointing to the center of the watch dial. I have seen watch faces where the Roman numerals have their tops pointing to the center of the face like the one on Google. Or with the Roman numerals where the bottom of the numerals point to the bottom of the watch face.

I was hoping that the 1939 movement with a possible 1943 case and a most distinctly different dial face would lead me to a unique place. So far it is the old puzzle wrapped in an enigma. Gatorcpa provide the Omega reference to a MI 2319 watch on the Omega site; something that I had not seen.

So what kind of military marking would be on a military watch? Are all watches that the military purchased inscribed with such markings. You really, really are helping me.

VetPsychWars · Nov 2, 2019

All watches issued from US Ordnance, not left over from WWI, were marked with an ID akin to a model number and a serial number.

Sometimes case parts were replaced but not remarked as required, and a lot of these were sold as surplus after WWII.

The chances of any Swiss watch being US issue before Vietnam is zero.

Tom

Jim Thoma · Nov 2, 2019

gatorcpa
I think this is a Ref. 2319. Here is some information from Omega on the watch.

https://www.omegawatches.com/en-us/watch-omega-other-omega-mi-2319

From what I have read, the main difference between the 2318 and 2319 is the case size. The 2319 case is 37mm to 38mm in diameter. This was considered huge for a watch back then.

To my eyes, this doesn’t look like a military issued watch. Omega didn’t have a big presence in the US prior to WWII. Most sold here were cased in US made gold-filled or 14K watch cases. Military issued watches tend to have plain dials with large numerals and lots of radium for easy night vision. The US Army bought some watches from Omega after D-Day, but these were delivered in Europe.

It is possible that your father-in-law obtained the watch in the UK when stationed there? From your story and information from Omega, the year 1943 seems to line up perfectly.

Please listen to what @mac_omega has to say. He has written a book about these watches. My watchmaker (now retired) used to say that these older Omegas were so well made, they almost put themselves back together after servicing.

Hopefully you received a good local recommendation for a watchmaker in NE Tennessee. You have a wonderful time capsule of a watch there.
gatorcpa

I mic'd the case and it is a 37mm case as noted. It is quite possible that Jim got the watch in Southern England. Actually he was stationed two places in England. Money would have been tight in 1943 as he was paying off his college loan, paying his sisters was to school, and sending money home to his parents. It is this almost total lack of money which leads me to think of military issue. He did tell the story about traveling to Africa and bring oranges back with him. He was boarded in a private home and the children in the house had never seen an orange before that.

I am going to close this watch and not open it again.

Jim

Jim Thoma · Nov 2, 2019

VetPsychWars
All watches issued from US Ordnance, not left over from WWI, were marked with an ID akin to a model number and a serial number.

Sometimes case parts were replaced but not remarked as required, and a lot of these were sold as surplus after WWII.

The chances of any Swiss watch being US issue before Vietnam is zero.

Tom

This with this feedback, the watch was not a military issue but a personal purchase?

Darlinboy · Nov 2, 2019

J Jim Thoma
This with this feedback, the watch was not a military issue but a personal purchase?

That is most likely. I have never run across any research indicating, or even speculating, that this particular reference was issued by the U.S. or other military forces. Takes nothing away from the watch as as heirloom, nor repudiates in any way that it was not used just as your father-in-law described.

Thanks for sharing it with us.

gatorcpa · Nov 2, 2019

VetPsychWars
The chances of any Swiss watch being US issue before Vietnam is zero.

Not quite zero.

There are exceptions to every rule.
gatorcpa

Jim Thoma · Nov 2, 2019

gatorcpa
Not quite zero.

There are exceptions to every rule.
gatorcpa

I should have expected this. But now I have yet another question. The dial crystal is deeply scratched if not split (my fingers can feel the scratch), so is it better to polish or replace the crystal?

Larry S · Nov 2, 2019

Replace if cracked or split...

bd-chrono · Nov 2, 2019

Very interesting history Jim. Sent you a message.

Bill Sohne · Nov 2, 2019

STANDY
Can you give a close up of the numbers inside the case back

@mac_omega is the one for these....

efauser
Welcome Jim and what a watch. Not trying to be pedantic but there was no USAF before 1947. He would have joined the US Army Air Forces (USAAF).

hi @efauser
Actually , it was not USAAF ..... it was called US ARMY Air Corps as my Dad served in WWII got a degree much the same way as Jim relative ... but he went to U of M then on to Yale and MIT ...and was in the Pacific. An additional FYI he will be 95 in a few weeks.

Good Hunting
Bill
Ps great watch!

Yak1 · Nov 2, 2019

Great story. Love reading about the person as well as the watch. Thanks!

joe band · Nov 2, 2019

great stories of paying it forward... first the degrees, now the watch. lovely.

Jim Thoma · Nov 3, 2019

J Jim Thoma
Actually the face is also different; but it does have the same

crown. The second dial is all contained within the inner circle of the watch. The middle ring on the face contains all twelve Roman numbers with the bottom of the Roman numerals pointing to the center of the watch dial. I have seen watch faces where the Roman numerals have their tops pointing to the center of the face like the one on Google. Or with the Roman numerals where the bottom of the numerals point to the bottom of the watch face.

I was hoping that the 1939 movement with a possible 1943 case and a most distinctly different dial face would lead me to a unique place. So far it is the old puzzle wrapped in an enigma. Gatorcpa provide the Omega reference to a MI 2319 watch on the Omega site; something that I had not seen.

So what kind of military marking would be on a military watch? Are all watches that the military purchased inscribed with such markings. You really, really are helping me.

I have had other help since yesterday. The most relevant is that the serial number is not a 1939 movement but a 1943. The site that I checked had 1939 but others have 1943. I now understand the markings of OXW to be in the import / export code for Omega watches. So now both the case and the movement are 1943 and by that time Jim McQuigg was in England. So he received the watch while he was there and before D-Day. I have also learned that some officers traded or sold their GI issue watches for Omega watches.

It ends another puzzle. When Jim was called up in 1951 he was issued supplies and office equipment. When he was released back into the reserves he had to sign for everything: the typewriter, pen and pencil set, stapler, etc. So surely if the watch had been issued to him in 1943 he would have had to return it in 1946. But he didn't, and although he remained in government service for most of the remainder of his life, he always kept the watch and wore it like personal property.

So the watch I now believe to be a CK 2319, 15 Jewell, Manual Wind Chronograph, made in 1943 and purchased in Southern England. I could find the village if necessary.

I note that other CK 2319 watches have markings after them like 2319/4; 2319/7. What does the extra numeral mean?

Finally there is that watch face dial. I have looked and looked and found similar faces. But I have not found another like it.

Jim Thoma · Nov 3, 2019

Bill Sohne
hi @efauser
Actually , it was not USAAF ..... it was called US ARMY Air Corps as my Dad served in WWII got a degree much the same way as Jim relative ... but he went to U of M then on to Yale and MIT ...and was in the Pacific. An additional FYI he will be 95 in a few weeks.

Good Hunting
Bill
Ps great watch!

He almost appears to not need that cane. U of M is Maine, Missouri, Michigan, Minnesota?

mac_omega · Nov 3, 2019

J Jim Thoma
Manual Wind Chronograph

Sorry, not a chronograph which means stopwatch, its just a plain hand wound wristwatch

J Jim Thoma
like 2319/4; 2319/7

the /4 or /7 does not matter a lot. these are markings for later batches (iterations) of this basic reference

Jim Thoma · Nov 3, 2019

mac_omega
Sorry, not a chronograph which means stopwatch, its just a plain hand wound wristwatch

the /4 or /7 does not matter a lot. these are markings for later batches (iterations) of this basic reference

Okay a Omega, CK 2319, 37mm, Manual Wind, 1943? I found a similar face: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/164099980158866492/. Which has the seconds all contained within the center face. But the minute ring is the middle ring instead of the third while the outer ring is Arabic rather than Roman numerals.

efauser · Nov 3, 2019

Bill Sohne
hi @efauser
Actually , it was not USAAF ..... it was called US ARMY Air Corps as my Dad served in WWII got a degree much the same way as Jim relative ... but he went to U of M then on to Yale and MIT ...and was in the Pacific. An additional FYI he will be 95 in a few weeks.

Good Hunting
Bill
Ps great watch!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_Air_Corps
https://spartacus-educational.com/2WWusaaf.htm
Either way, it didn't become the USAF until 1947, which was really my point.

gatorcpa · Nov 3, 2019

J Jim Thoma
Okay a Omega, CK 2319, 37mm, Manual Wind, 1943? I found a similar face: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/164099980158866492/. Which has the seconds all contained within the center face. But the minute ring is the middle ring instead of the third while the outer ring is Arabic rather than Roman numerals.

The watch you posted has an automatic movement. Not even close to being “the same” as what you have.

Try “Omega Watch 2319” for your Google search. You’ll find many just like yours, just with different dials. It was not unusual for Omega to make the same case with dozens of dial styles at that time. Also, most of the ones like yours you find on the internet will have had the dials “restored”. Your dial looks 100% original to me.
gatorcpa

VetPsychWars · Nov 3, 2019

gatorcpa
Not quite zero.

There are exceptions to every rule.
gatorcpa

Sorry, I was so focused on commenting on WWII watches that I didn't point out that I was commenting on WWII watches.

US watch companies in 1917 weren't making a whole lot of decent wristwatches, so accurate 15-jewel watches were purchased from Omega and Zenith. They are marked "Signal Corps" because that's who maintained them, but they were used for many purposes, especially timing artillery.

After WWI, American watch companies made numerous examples of ordnance watches and I do not believe the US ARMY stamp on the back of that Omega to be genuine, mostly because it's hand stamped. They had machines for this purpose.

The weathermen got some of the most advanced watches available at the time from Elgin, Hamilton, and Bulova. There would have been no need to purchase from Omega when you can get a Hamilton ship's chronometer.