Vortic sued by Swatch Group

mzinski · Feb 19, 2020

I’ve only just now become aware of this: http://uspatentlaw.cn/en/is-selling...uct-trademark-infringement-hamilton-v-vortic/
I suppose I’m a couple years behind the official start of the lawsuit.
Not quite sure where my opinion falls on this since Vortic leaves all trademarks intact thru the reconditioning process. My gut says, let Vortic do it’s thing - they’re very old, reconditioned items not sold as new.

Dan S · Feb 19, 2020

That's interesting. Honestly, I can see the reason for concern. Vortic is highly visible, but there are various people making new products and selling them with the trademarked name. I can see why Swatch doesn't like it. When they acquired Hamilton, the only thing of value they really got was the name.

And frankly, I think the Vortic watches are so hideous that I wouldn't mind them being put out of business.

Archer · Feb 20, 2020

There are a few twists not noted in that article. One is that at the time of filing, Vortic had a lot of Hamilton trademarks on their site as part of the advertising of these watches, which have since been removed.

The second goes to the issue of "confusion" of the origins of the product on the part of the consumer. While no one here would mistake the Vortic creations as being made by Hamilton, we are a different crowd than the general public. In fact Hamilton received an email from a customer, with a photo of a Vortic watch, asking where to buy one of these watches.

I agree it will be interesting to see where this goes...

Dan S · Feb 20, 2020

Archer
There are a few twists not noted in that article. One is that at the time of filing, Vortic had a lot of Hamilton trademarks on their site as part of the advertising of these watches, which have since been removed.

The second goes to the issue of "confusion" of the origins of the product on the part of the consumer. While no one here would mistake the Vortic creations as being made by Hamilton, we are a different crowd than the general public. In fact Hamilton received an email from a customer, with a photo of a Vortic watch, asking where to buy one of these watches.

I agree it will be interesting to see where this goes...

I can even imagine someone sending one of these watches back to Hamilton for repair. The most obvious branding is "Hamilton" since it's written right on the dial and on the movement. Vortic is much less prominent on the case-back.

pongster · Feb 20, 2020

How about the RGM Model 222 watches using old Hamilton 10 movements?

gatorcpa · Feb 20, 2020

I think @Archer hit on the key issue. This case seems more about the usage of Hamilton trademarks in advertising and whether such usage creates consumer confusion.

I believe I read that RGM got full OK from Swatch on using old Hamilton logos etc. in their advertising.

I suspect Vortec did not, and that is really what is being litigated here.
gatorcpa

greyfox422 · Feb 20, 2020

I think it's interesting that Rolex and Swatch are trying to protect their brand image. La Californienne and Vortic has been around for a few years and only now Rolex and Swatch has decided to pursue legal action. Yet both major brands aren't perusing legal action against the super fakes or knock offs. I assume La Californienne and Vortic will use this in their defense. As for Vortic specifically, they are repairing and re-casing a watch that would otherwise lay unused. I don't understand why Swatch doesn't use that as a business relationship and outlet for growth instead of fighting Vortic.

abrod520 · Feb 20, 2020

Also consider that the movements aren't 100% original, they're assembled using whatever parts are available if any are needed. So if something gets messed up and it says "Hamilton" on the movement bridge and on the dial, it hurts Hamilton's brand.

Swatch has also been putting considerable effort into making Hamilton a resurgent brand lately, and I think that this presents a plausible enough trademark threat

Dan S · Feb 20, 2020

greyfox422
I think it's interesting that Rolex and Swatch are trying to protect their brand image. La Californienne and Vortic has been around for a few years and only now Rolex and Swatch has decided to pursue legal action. Yet both major brands aren't perusing legal action against the super fakes or knock offs. I assume La Californienne and Vortic will use this in their defense. As for Vortic specifically, they are repairing and re-casing a watch that would otherwise lay unused. I don't understand why Swatch doesn't use that as a business relationship and outlet for growth instead of fighting Vortic.

How and why would they pursue legal action against fakes and knock-offs which are illicit black-market activities? They are already explicitly illegal, and it is law enforcement's job to address that. It's not as if they are being made by readily identifiable manufacturers who can be sued.

Archer · Feb 20, 2020

abrod520
Also consider that the movements aren't 100% original, they're assembled using whatever parts are available if any are needed. So if something gets messed up and it says "Hamilton" on the movement bridge and on the dial, it hurts Hamilton's brand.

Not sure I understand what you are saying. I don't think Vortic is buying up random parts assortments and making movements out of them, but certainly they would replace worn or damaged parts to make the movements functional. Watchmakers replace parts all the time, so what Vortic is doing in that regard would be no different.

I have often talked about buying and using entire spare movements as a source of parts for vintage watches - it is a common practice, and as long as the parts are in good condition, it's not a problem.

Waltesefalcon · Feb 20, 2020

I get the suit. Hamilton is prominently written across the dial and many people will assume that these watches are being produced by Hamilton and not a different company.

Syrte · Feb 20, 2020

greyfox422
As for Vortic specifically, they are repairing and re-casing a watch that would otherwise lay unused. I don't understand why Swatch doesn't use that as a business relationship and outlet for growth instead of fighting Vortic.

Swatch has no interest salvaging old Hamilton watches. It wants to sell new Hamilton watches.

Archer · Feb 20, 2020

Syrte
Swatch has no interest salvaging old Hamilton watches. It wants to sell new Hamilton watches.

True, and it's a shame. However as noted above they didn't go after RGM when they used Hamilton 10 size movements in a line of watches at one time (Cal. 921 and 923).

https://www.rgmwatches.com/model-222

I suspect the difference here is that RGM didn't have "Hamilton" on the dial...

I have also used these 10 size Hamilton movements in wrist watches in the past (917, 921, and 945's), but again didn't use the Hamilton name on the dials.

Cheers, Al

greyfox422 · Feb 20, 2020

Syrte
Swatch has no interest salvaging old Hamilton watches. It wants to sell new Hamilton watches.

I just makes me sad that the watch industry is more interested in selling new than preserving old. There needs to be a balance and supporting those businesses that refurbish or repair their vintage watches should be more prominent within the watch industry.

abrod520 · Feb 20, 2020

Archer
Not sure I understand what you are saying. I don't think Vortic is buying up random parts assortments and making movements out of them, but certainly they would replace worn or damaged parts to make the movements functional. Watchmakers replace parts all the time, so what Vortic is doing in that regard would be no different.

I have often talked about buying and using entire spare movements as a source of parts for vintage watches - it is a common practice, and as long as the parts are in good condition, it's not a problem.

That is true, but these are being sold as new, and with the Hamilton name on the movement and dial. A vintage watch coming back from service with some parts from another donor movement is one thing, but somebody selling as new a cobbled-together movement of dubious quality with your brand name on the dial is another in my opinion.

Syrte · Feb 20, 2020

greyfox422
I just makes me sad that the watch industry is more interested in selling new than preserving old..

That’s true of absolutely every industry. And why we all have jobs and incomes- and are burning the planet down. It’s called « growth ». 🙄
Keep old stuff= stop spending energy needlessly =live with just what you need. Join Greta Thunberg. QED
Makes me sad too. We should do something about it, as best we can in our little sphere.

PS I seem to recall the clothing industry/ fashion industry are big sources of pollution and emissions. That’s a start.
End of thread drift?

Archer · Feb 20, 2020

abrod520
That is true, but these are being sold as new, and with the Hamilton name on the movement and dial. A vintage watch coming back from service with some parts from another donor movement is one thing, but somebody selling as new a cobbled-together movement of dubious quality with your brand name on the dial is another in my opinion.

Not sure what you mean when you say they are being sold "as new" because they clearly state these are movements that are not new:

"The American Artisan Series is a line of fully American Made wristwatches powered by restored, U.S. made pocket watch movements. Each watch contains the original movement (timepiece), dial (face), and hands from a vintage (1880’s - 1950’s) pocket watch made by one of the original great American watch companies. Vortic is pairing cutting edge technology with beautiful, authentic, quality pieces made 100+ years ago to preserve an important part of United States history in a functional way."

The Hamilton name is on the movement, because they are Hamilton movements. I'm not sure I would assume that the movements here are "cobbled together" and are of "dubious quality", but perhaps you have some insight on that you could share? It seems you are equating these to the Ukranian watches, and I'm not sure I would put any of these companies in the same bucket as those junkers.

Again, I think the issue with this is the fact that the Hamilton name is still on the dial. The other makers who have done this don't typically leave the original name on the dial, so RGM as noted above, or R. Paige, who's designs I find...uh...interesting...

https://www.rpaigewatch.com/collection/

And yes, I believe this is the guy that founded TZ.

Actually it seems that he also has some that use the original dials as well, but most of them have his own dials.

Dan S · Feb 20, 2020

Archer
Again, I think the issue with this is the fact that the Hamilton name is still on the dial. The other makers who have done this don't typically leave the original name on the dial, so RGM as noted above, or R. Paige, who's designs I find...uh...interesting...

I agree, and since most of the Vortic watches have display case-backs, the fact that the Hamilton name is on the movement tends to reinforce the naive impression that the watch is "a Hamilton" to a random layperson looking at the watch.

Archer · Feb 20, 2020

Dan S
I agree, and since most of the Vortic watches have display case-backs, the fact that the Hamilton name is on the movement tends to reinforce the naive impression that the watch is "a Hamilton" to a random layperson looking at the watch.

Well, I think the attraction of the old movements is that they are so nicely finished, so a display case back is almost a "must" on these to show off the work that was done at the time. These are lovely old movements:

Didn't use many of the 945, but it was a wonderful movement:

It's an absolute shame to see them go to waste, since the wrist watch sized movements are not "collectible" in the pocket watch collector circles. Tons of them have had the cases scrapped for the gold content, leaving a wonderful movement behind that is often either tossed out, or put up on eBay, which is where I used to get mine from.

I also bought out the entire stock of Hamilton 10 size spare parts from a local vintage parts distributor - he said no one really wanted those parts. I still have stock of all kinds of Hamilton 10 size parts that are brand new in factory packaging...

Cheers, Al

Larry S · Feb 20, 2020

gatorcpa
I think @Archer hit on the key issue. This case seems more about the usage of Hamilton trademarks in advertising and whether such usage creates consumer confusion.

I believe I read that RGM got full OK from Swatch on using old Hamilton logos etc. in their advertising.

I suspect Vortec did not, and that is really what is being litigated here.
gatorcpa

Roland used to work for Hamilton ... I’m sure he is buttoned up on this issue.

Vortic sued by Swatch Group

mzinski

Dan S

Archer

Dan S

pongster

gatorcpa

greyfox422

abrod520

Dan S

Archer

Waltesefalcon

Syrte

Archer

greyfox422

abrod520

Syrte

Archer

Dan S

Archer

Larry S

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