This is probably a very generalised question with no definitive answer but it’s one that I think may be relevant to buyers and sellers alike of vintage watches both here on our forum and in other sales areas................... just how accurate (or not) the watch for sale is actually running, when worn over a set period of time.

The sales forum here shows great pictures and detailed descriptions of various aspects of the watch for sale but generally the timekeeping itself is limited to more generic phrases such as ‘all functions work as they should’, ‘running without issue’ or 'keeping good time' etc etc but very rarely on a vintage watch what the actual timekeeping is over a few days while worn?

What actually is 'keeping good time' on a 55yr old watch??

This question is prompted by a purchase I made on Ebay a while ago where I bought a watch that was described as 'keeping excellent time, although service history is unknown’. It actually runs at -45 secs over a 24hr period when worn, how acceptable would most here find that?

Although every watch I buy goes into my 'watch guy' for either a check over or full service depending on his recommendations at that time, being watches from the 50’s & 60’s their timekeeping does vary, I guess that’s inevitable for watches of that age….

I’ve not sold a watch here yet, but this year if I do, what would members say is acceptable timekeeping of a 50-60 year old watch so I could use the phrase ‘keeps good time’?!

 

This is a very reasonable question. However, I believe that the answer is rather simple: there is very little knowledge in the community, if any, about movements and their conditions.
Take, for example, MWO book: on one hand it is extremely accurate about a wide variety of details but on the other hand it simply categorises caliber 321 into three versions, A1, A2 and A3 and just on a visual basis from the caseback side, thus missing a lot of subtle changes and variants.
There are very few notable exceptions ( http://orologi.forumfree.it/?t=71905720 http://orologi.forumfree.it/?t=71922993 http://orologi.forumfree.it/?t=71963869 ), but in general the attention paid to the mechanical aspects of the watches is very, very rare.
With respect to the running conditions of a a 50-60 year old watch, a certain idea about them could be given by showing a screenshot of a timegrapher measurement in six positions. Simple, but nobody does this.
People like to think that their 'watch guy' will solve every issue with a full service. Unfortunately, this is not the case: the final result will always depend on the state of wear of the parts and this should be accounted in the value of the watch.
In conclusion, from a strictly technical standpoint the phrase ‘keeps good time’ means very little, if nothing.
Cheers.

 

I buy, love and collect vintage watches 80% for their design aesthetics, 15% for their historical merit and 5%, if that, for their time keeping capabilities.

That doesn't mean I don't want or like them to be accurate but I do appreciate that there are occasions when without some or many parts being replaced during service perhaps an accuracy of +/- 15 or 20 seconds a day might be the best possible result.

When buying it's always going to be going to my watchmaker anyway for service and some come back chronometer spec and others don´t, as @watchtinker mentions there can be many variables at play.

So long as it is not described as super accurate and just serviced when it actually turns out to be running a few minutes out each day I don't mind.

The worst I had was an Ebay Longines Chrono described as fully serviced, when it arrived it was running at +7 minutes per hour!

I think the more vintage watches in rotation the less the accuracy really matters in the great scheme of things, as I know I sometimes change watches at least 3 times a day

 

This is an issue that has been discussed here a few times.

In my view, the statement of "keeping good time" is at best hot air, in the worst case misguiding. After receiving a watch (by mail or whatever) anything could have happended to the watch, and if it runs +5 minutes too fast per day, the seller can always just say that it was fine before shipping. Great. The only thing I trust is a receipt, preferably backed up by photos, from a qualified watchmaker. In that case I'll gladly accept +20 seconds deviation a day, much more than I'll wear a watch without service history that's only +5 off... Who knows, that one might slowly be disintegrating in its case!

Accurat time keeping is only a bonus for me, seeing that I change watches pretty much daily. Yesterday it was the Torgoen at work, an old Seemaster when I got home, and today it's my Speedmaster. Each one I had to wind and set before strapping it on my wrist, so I wouldn't know if it was inaccurate. However, the Torgoen is a year old, the Seemaster was serviced last year and the Speedmaster was looked at by Omega 18 months ago or so.

 

This is oh so true, I'm sure most of us have no real idea how accurately many of our vintage pieces are running over a period of a few days.

I'm considering putting a few of my Longines watches up for sale so thought I'd wear a recently serviced watch (April of last year) for a few days to make sure it's in fine fettle. It's actually gaining 55 secs over a 24hr period so I shall be taking it back to my watchmaker in due course for him to check the regulation. I had no idea it was running as fast as that as it's hardly been worn, certainly no longer than 24hrs at any one time!

 

I don't really care about how accurate any of my watches are. Like cristos71 I buy them because of how they look. If it is a minute late or early it's Ok I just adjust them every couple of days and as some watches don't get much wrist time, it is not a noticeable problem. It definitely wouldn't stop me wearing or buying a watch. Thinking about it, I am glad I don't have the same attitude towards buying other things though.....TV not quite working. ..its Ok I only need to listen, no picture no problem

 

I am afraid that it is not the case: the indicated post shows how, according to Al, a watch can seem to run accurately when, on the contrary, the movement is dry and in need of a service. However, the movement must be basically in order.
On the contrary, a movement which shows significant wear cannot run satisfactorily no matter how well you overhaul it. To an untrained eye it might even appear accurate, but for sure it cannot be made to run whithin its original specifications

 

That's semantics, IMO. The -overall- point to be made is that you cannot gauge the true state of a watch from its timekeeping.

Then comes the issue of "keeping good time". How many vintage, non-chronometer watches has a stated set of "original specifications"? Just wondering aloud here, as I don't own any old brochures or manuals.

 

@cristos71 nailed it.

There are two types of watch nerds here (maybe 3 or 4 types but will do 2 types)

Collecting vintage watches that don't mind a bit of variation in accuracy as the whole watch itself is the beauty

Collectors of watches that are similar to above but accuracy is the key point above the beauty of a timepiece.

I read many a thread about setting to atomic clocks and accuracy off by 6 seconds compared to last week, and face up face down at night and correcting to get in the COSC
I myself have never set a watch that accurate ever. I have a TAG link Quartz that is my setting watch with most of my watches and if it's 7:21 that's what I set a vintage watch to. I do look when I take it off and am happy with within a minute as seconds are never really studied that much.

Have mentioned in a thread ages ago I work in a office with say 20 clocks that are set by somebody when a battery is replaced and not touched. Then I drive a different car every day that has clock that has different time to any other. And then board a vessel that has a clock on every deck and chat to a master of a vessel that has a watch that may be several minute different again. Part of my job is to grant pratique to a vessel that clears it into the country which is written as the particular minute in time.

This is never questioned as I don't think that the difference is ever really that much of a issue as no one is really able to control anything accept the watch that they are wearing. The seconds do not matter but the minutes are often the important thing as many a master will change he's watch when several minutes difference are noticed.

I enjoy a watch that is within a minute or two at the end of a rotation but would never take the time to check the second accuracy of any watch I own. If I put a watch down that was several minutes difference I will wear it a bit to check that's it's not overly out of time keeping but a minute or so a day would not bother me.

I do have all but two or three watches at any time in service and the last three watches bought since the new year have been serviced recently.

 

The value of accuracy for me is telling me when a watch may need a service, otherwise I don't give a hoot.
I may stare at my watch 30 times a day, and never once even notice the time it says.

Then again, maybe I need to up the prozac

 

I'm certainly not obsessed by the accuracy of my watches and probably should have cut out a lot of the waffle in my original post......

The main point I was trying to ask was if I attempted to sell a watch here for the first time, either stated as being 'serviced by my watchmaker' or 'service history unknown' (depending on the watch) should I be pointing out that as in the case of the watch that was serviced in April of last year that it was running 55 secs fast over a 24hr period?

I'd be happy if most were happy to list it as 'watch is running fine and without issue', I was just checking that I wasn't going to get my arse kicked if that fell outside what most thought was acceptable.....

 

Maybe I am an outlier here but I appreciate both, the aesthetics and the accuracy.
I do not rotate my watches too often - so sometimes I wear them for a week or two, and I need accurate time in my job.
So I expect my watches to be set once a week and not losing or gaining more than about a minute per week.

Back to the question of the OP:

When a seller´s description says: "keeping excellent time" I expect a deviation of not more than +-15 sec/24hours
"good timekeeping" I expect in a range of +- 30 sec/24 hours
worse timekeeping should be mentioned in the description IMO

I would not accept timekeeping of several minutes off in a 24h period if the seller described it as keeping good time - this would be a reason for complaint and I would tell him that he was dishonest in his item description...

 

I expect my 50 year old chronometers to be within +3 / -2 seconds a day.

( )

Actually, I've had quite a few Omegas and Longines from the 50's and 60's that even kept better time than those standards.

In reality, I'm wearing man jewelry and couldn't care if it's off by even a minute in the 12 or 13 hours I wear a vintage watch during a work day.

 

These are very similar parameters to what I find acceptable when buying. When selling too if it is out by a more than +/- 30 sec a day I would say that a service would be required if it was to be worn regularly.

 

What @mac_omega says to a tee for selling description.

What @ulackfocus says to a tee for wearing.

 

Hey guys, noob question here on this topic, but isn't the time keeping accuracy almost irrelevant? We know that a watch can keep good time but still need work and we know that even a brand new watch can be out of spec.

Wouldn't it be more useful in a sales ad to mention whether service history is known or not and when the next service is due (if known)? Even though it's not really 'provable' unless the watch comes with service paperwork and probably pictures and from a reputable service center, wouldn't that be more relevant than a comment "keeping good time"? .. there is a matter of buying the seller. If you trust the seller and the seller is honest about service history, doesn't that tell you what you need to know?

 

Personally I am more concerned with precision over accuracy with my watches. If it shows a little drift from a particular time reference I can live with that, but I want it to maintain a stable rate – that is to say that it changes very little, if at all, over time. I pay very little attention to comments such as "runs well" or "keeps good time". Unless it's been stated and accompanied by a receipt for a recent service. I will always assume it needs to be serviced and then pleasantly surprised If it doesn't. If it is running, say, +10 every 24 hours measured over a number of days then I am okay with that precision but if it various day to day then off it goes for a check/overhaul. However, I do think all FS posts should indicate the +/- accuracy just so as to form part of the description and to give an indication of performance that is at least somewhat more meaningful than "runs well"

 

Thanks, all. I asked pretty much this same question a couple of days ago, not because I'm obsessed with accuracy (my phone gives me that) but because I want some idea if I'm getting what I paid for when I give a watchmaker hundreds of dollars and in some cases wait for months to get the watch back. But as with most things in life generally, the answers are inconclusive.

 

An accurate watch that has been left off the wrist for, say, a month or two, can often exhibit changes in rate after being removed, set aside for period of a month or so, then later on returned to service! Don't ask me to explain the reason. I doubt anyone can. It is the way with mechanical watches. Particularly with watches that, for example, might be performing within, say, 5 seconds per day when set aside, that suddenly is out 10 seconds per day when returned to service. A very fine watch in good order may very well return to its excellent rate if given the chance to "settle in". And a highly accurate watch worn to, say, a rock concert where the wearer applauds enthusiastically, can be thrown off by up to half a minute! I don't sell my vintage watches. Were I to sell one that met my particular standards, and I was to receive a complaint that the watch was "not as advertised" because it was out half a minute a day, I'd give the guy his money back!

You need quartz accuracy, stability, predictability, monotony? Buy Quartz! If the factory that made a particular mechanical watch 50 years ago, didn't build chronometer specs into it, chances are that a watch repair guy isn't going to make a chronometer out of it! Even if that 50 year old watch had been built to chronometer specs, if it had the misfortune of having had a serious accident, or fell into the hands of a "dip and swish" watchmaker or two, chances are there is no way it can be returned to as new performance!