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Vintage Breitling Chronomat 217012 769 - Refurb options?

Omegafanman
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Hi team forum,

I have been looking into the life history of a WW2 RAF fighter pilot and later 1950s test pilot. All indications are he wore (certainly as a test pilot) a black dial Breitling Chronomat 217012 769.
I might get to see a photo of the actual watch shortly.

Any Breitling experts who can advise what to look out for?

Anyone with a similar or identical watch?

Lastly any quick show or serial number clue to check the year? I am interested if it might have been a watch he wore during WW2 although the test pilot flights (details to follow) are equally significant.

Thanks in advance for any help and info,,,,,,,which I can also pass onto his surviving family.

Edit - this is the current open question...https://omegaforums.net/threads/vin...17012-769-refurb-options.136707/#post-1859114
Edited:
 
Omegafanman
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Ok so I now have some pictures of the actual watch (which still had its original strap). The serial number was pretty obvious and I thinks puts this at 1945 - maybe it was purchased to celibrate the end of the war or to match his commencment as a test pilot? I am not sure if these were ever RAF issued?

Anyway very interested to hear the forums thoughts on the watches condition and what cosmetic / cleaning work the family should consider if any (not my area of expertise).

Also anyone with a similar or identical watch?

Basically any information i can pass on appreciated and there will be an interesting back story to follow / maybe some vintage photos taken with the original owner.......

All help / any help and information appreciated...

.
 
Watch Main - Copy.jpg Watch and strap - Copy.jpg Case back - Copy.jpg
jsducote
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Given the damage to the dial, case, crystal, and bezel, I can't imagine the movement is working. It may not even be salvageable - we'll need to see inside. Wrong hands. I'm not an RAF expert (or a Chronomat expert, for that matter) but I think it would have been marked if they issued it, thus it would have been a personal purchase/gift.
 
Omegafanman
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Thanks for the replies so far. I have borrowed the image below from the @LouS post linked by @DirtyDozen12 above.
@jsducote - I am told the watch still runs but I have advised them not to try that again.

In terms of the hands, bezel and condition:-

I don’t believe the watch has been touched for 40 years after the death of the owner aside from the new strap but I will check that. It would have had a few decades hard use in an test pilot / engineering environment prior to that. The hands are interesting / maybe a late service swap out - a bit of a mystery and I wonder what they are from?

The watch has strong provenance with photos and family history. The owner is a renowned test Pilot and was a senior RAF fighter pilot and test pilot in WW2 (I will share more when I can). He was a test pilot for a private company after the war but retained service privileges as the aircraft were top secret and of strong national importance.

I would like to give the family some advice. Looking at the condition now is it best left as an air loom / museum display item or would it benefit from any work / could one of his sons or grandsons wear it?
I think the dial needs more than just a clean - there is some degradation and damage?
It is way off a pristine model - but has a strong history and was probably worn during a famous flight which the family want to keep in peoples memories.

Thanks again for help so far and any help furthers help and thoughts on this.

.
Edited:
 
72BBF6FE-FFF0-428A-A478-216F3393703E.jpeg A50547F5-AEDA-40A6-AB02-51804B31E6FE.jpeg 0BB60920-8B07-4D21-8088-244FE9EB5452.jpeg
Omegafanman
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Dan S Dan S
What happened to the bezel? 😲

I just found out he did have a play in one of these as an RAF test pilot ... maybe the fuel could dissolve bezels and not just pilots (I think one poor German pilot was dissolved during the war). ME163.
.
 
CBA087FD-C697-4DDC-9B9D-95A3C3965607.jpeg
MRC
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Omegafanman Omegafanman
I just found out he did have a play in one of these as an RAF test pilot ... maybe the fuel could dissolve bezels and not just pilots (I think one poor German pilot was dissolved during the war). ME163.

As I understand it only one Allied pilot flew that, and the standard practice was to have several unpowered flights by being towed to height and gliding down before a take-off by loading fuel and lighting the fire, and that's what he did. He was very valuable to risk and only did one powered flight, with good German language skills he was involved in interrogating very senior German officers. In his talk on flying it (on uTube) he mentions that the fuel would dissolve the pilot in 9 minutes if the tanks (in the cockpit!) were penetrated by gunfire. And he was RN not RAF.
 
Omegafanman
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MRC MRC
As I understand it only one Allied pilot flew that, and the standard practice was to have several unpowered flights by being towed to height and gliding down before a take-off by loading fuel and lighting the fire, and that's what he did. He was very valuable to risk and only did one powered flight, with good German language skills he was involved in interrogating very senior German officers. In his talk on flying it (on uTube) he mentions that the fuel would dissolve the pilot in 9 minutes if the tanks (in the cockpit!) were penetrated by gunfire. And he was RN not RAF.

I will have to try and ‘Winkle’ out some more information if I can. Hopefully I will be able to post some details on this chap. He was 100% RAF so it would be a new bit of info for that story. The pilot you refer to (if I am on the right track) was also a great character - very brave, skilled and understated.
 
Omegafanman
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DirtyDozen12 DirtyDozen12
I just noticed that the dial on @LouS' example (right) is not the same as the one in question (left). Anyway, below is another example (center) that looks similar to the dial in question.
upload_2021-9-22_17-30-25.png upload_2021-9-22_17-31-44.png

https://shop.hodinkee.com/products/chronomat-ref-769case-595766?variant=33073648795723

Many thanks for this. I plan to send them some feedback before the weekend and cross check a few questions. I guess the biggie for me remains what is best for the watch? I guess leave it as is and find a place to display it with some notes on the pilots achievements (there might be a museum option for that). I cant see that it would be possible or economic to improve the watch to a wearable condition / it looks too far gone + to what degree should it be refurbished if at all - I remain a bit confused what to advise them?
Any suggestions or thoughts from the forum appreciated.
 
Omegafanman
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Small bump - what to advise on this? Anything to save here or just a display piece because of the back story pining for the fjords?
 
Braindrain
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I'd say display piece.

I haven't looked for a while, but the dials (in poor condition, but at least better than what they have) come up from time to time. However, the outer bezel was near impossible to source. It really depends whether the family wants to restore this to original condition or just get it going to wear/run again. The former may never happen, or it'll be a loooonnnggg and expensive endeavour.
 
Dan S
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I wouldn't be surprised if service bezels and dials are available and could be provided by horologicalservices.com. However, they might insist on replacing a lot of parts to make the watch look like new. It's an option.
 
Omegafanman
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Thanks for the feedback and help. I will post any updates.
I wonder where the donor hands came from - I have seen some MOD pocket watches with that style?
 
Omegafanman
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I just wondered if anyone had thoughts on the style / source of the replacement hands fitted at some point for this watch. I was comparing them to this MOD pocket watch for example. I wonder where the new watch hands came from and what period they were fitted?
.
 
Hands 02.jpg Hands.jpg
Dan S
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The hands could well be older than the watch. Perhaps a watchmaker went through a bin of hands just looking for something that would fit.
Edited:
 
Braindrain
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Dan S Dan S
The hands could well be older than the watch. Perhaps a watchmaker went through a bin of hands just looking for something that would fit.

I'd agree that's the most likely scenario.
 
jsducote
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Only thing I'd feel confident replacing at this point is the crystal. It'd be a different story if I were preparing it to sell. The wrong (albeit old) hands have been on it so long, they're part of the personal history of the watch at this point. And I agree that they likely came out of a bin 50 years ago, so finding the exact donor is going to be impossible. The damage to the crystal is part of the personal story too, but I think it'll look nicer in the display case being able to see the dial better. A watchmaker who specializes in vintage restorations may have some advice on stabilizing the dial & movement so that it at least doesn't degrade any further should you decide to fully bring it back to life at a later date.
 
Omegafanman
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jsducote jsducote
Only thing I'd feel confident replacing at this point is the crystal. It'd be a different story if I were preparing it to sell. The wrong (albeit old) hands have been on it so long, they're part of the personal history of the watch at this point. And I agree that they likely came out of a bin 50 years ago, so finding the exact donor is going to be impossible. The damage to the crystal is part of the personal story too, but I think it'll look nicer in the display case being able to see the dial better. A watchmaker who specializes in vintage restorations may have some advice on stabilizing the dial & movement so that it at least doesn't degrade any further should you decide to fully bring it back to life at a later date.

Thanks. I had contact with the owners yesterday based on all feedback above, I will post any outcome. I am doing a bit more research on the original owner and hopefully will be able to post something on their story at some point in the coming weeks.
 
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