UPDATE: Ford Lightning (Full Electric F-150) -> [NOT] refusing my order

pdxleaf · Jul 13, 2022

cvalue13
The Rivian storage pass-through is pretty cool, especially with the camp stove inserts, etc.

As for “my” Lightning: truth is, I barely drive these days, and my current (gasoline) truck is paid off with less than 35K miles. So, I’m choosing to view SunRun as having done me a favor. 😁

And since we’re having a third little kid early next year, I suppose we may be shopping for wife’s (bigger) car soon… 🤮

Congrats!

JwRosenthal · Jul 13, 2022

Foo2rama
…when I sell my beloved e46M3,

I think we need an intervention 😲

I’ll trade you my e34 M5 for your e46 M3….you can put big knobby tires on it.

vbrad26 · Jul 13, 2022

Don't sell the E46!

Foo2rama · Jul 13, 2022

JwRosenthal
I think we need an intervention 😲

I’ll trade you my e34 M5 for your e46 M3….you can put big knobby tires on it.

vbrad26
Don't sell the E46!

After 16 years of ownership, It's just time to hand her off to her new caretaker. I have no doubts there will be times I will regret the sale.

JwRosenthal · Jul 13, 2022

Foo2rama
After 16 years of ownership, It's just time to hand her off to her new caretaker. I have no doubts there will be times I will regret the sale.

I’ll trade you a Wyler and a Seiko for it- I’ll even come pick it up!

cvalue13 · Jul 31, 2022

UPDATE:

Well, I didn’t refuse delivery afterall. It was close, since I’ve written off the home generator capabilities (a major selling point when I put in my deposit), then dealt with SunRun (still makes my hair stand on end).

In the end, though, a central reason I kept the truck is this: my dealership did not require me to sign the contract prohibiting me from selling the truck for 12 months after purchase. Ford supports dealers in requiring this type of contract, but it is up to the dealers to decide whether to implement.

So Thursday before last I walked into the dealership with a central decision tree item: if they required me to sign such a contract, I’d walk the deal.

That mattered to my decision primarily because the truck I bought at MSRP for $79,000 (before $7,500 tax credit) is currently trading on the secondary market for upwards of $125,000.

Mad as I was (am) at SunRun (and Ford by association), I decided that purchasing a vehicle that appreciates by 50% when driven off the lot was … a no-brainer.

Now, that appreciation may dwindle quickly over the next 6 to 12 months as Ford places more units in the market, but I don’t think it will dip below my MSRP, and I expect it to stay still well above.

And my plan, in any event, is to drive it a few months and decide how badly I want to keep it, or instead trade it in.

I’ve been driving the Lightning for 10 days now, and bullet a few first impressions.

• on one hand, so much about this truck’s fit & finish, driving, etc., is identical to the 2018 F150 I traded in towards it, which I take to be an interesting and smart approach by Ford given the market of purchasers it is attempting to attract (compare the Tesla Cybertruck approach)

• on the other hand, three key differences in (to me) reverse order of importance:

(1) this thing is fast for any vehicle, but especially a full sized pickup: 0-60 in 3.8 seconds, with the 30-70 times beating the Rivian by 0.01 seconds. Ford, however, needs to offer a launch sequence like the Rivian to beat it in the 0-60, and - relatedly - better tune the launch as power distribution to the front in order to address some annoying torque steer

(2) as a first time EV owner, the learning curve is high for anyone paying attention: there’s a new world of learning to do around the nuances of charging at home, on the road, etc., and distance trip planning becomes a whole thing

(3) most important to me: the frunk. (That is, for folks not yet in the know, the front trunk.) With a couple of brief exceptions I’ve driven a pickup truck of some sort for almost 30 years, which means having a secure storage space outside the cabin is an amazing addition to life in a pickup.

What should probably make the list but will take a bit more time to set in is the prospect of not visiting a gas station. Similarly, these EVs have essentially zero routine maintenance (other than occasionally checking the tire balance, rotation), so gone are the days of thinking about oil changes, “regularly scheduled maintenance” intervals, etc.

And, since I have 21.4kW of solar on my roof, there’s a synthetic way in which I’m basically paying nothing for vehicle “fuel.”

I’ve seen and like the Rivian just fine, and I’ll be interested if Tesla ever gets a Cybertruck on the road. But that there now exists an all-electric full sized pickup from a major manufacturer is quite a sea change in the EV landscape.

pdxleaf · Jul 31, 2022

Good for you. Big EV fan.

The acceleration is very noticeable, and fun. It's hard not to overdo it.

I remember my first panic attack a few months after driving our first EV. I was driving past a gas station and couldn't remember the last time I filled up. It took me a second to realize I wasn't going to run out of gas.

Welcome to the future.

Foo2rama · Jul 31, 2022

I doubt it will get to rivian times.

the rivian is lighter and has more power.

both are great trucks and both have strengths.

I’ve driven both. Ride and speed is clearly in one brand. The Lightening drives like an F-150 with a very torquey silent diesel. Granted it’s the best driving F150 I’ve driven.

Yes the 4 wheel double wishbone is nice in the lightening but the active suspension in the Rivian really shrinks it’s size and weight in a very surprising way. It feels better then an X5M to be honest.

honestly the R1T and the lightening are not really comparable. Once an excellent perfection of a work truck built in fords decades of experience perfecting the perfect pickup. The Rivian is a sport utility vehicle that excels off-road (better then a Jeep rubicon)and makes a pretty compelling grand tourer.

Both are great just different.

cvalue13 · Aug 1, 2022

Foo2rama
I doubt it will get to rivian times.

the rivian is lighter and has more power.

i hear ya.

Which then brings back the central oddity: despite the Rivian’s Hugh on-paper power advantage and launch sequence, on the road the F150L is somehow only a few lengths behind despite its (for now) poor front suspension tuning and (for now) lack of launch sequence.

here are the relative stats between the two trucks:

POWER (SAE NET) 580 hp 835 hp
TORQUE (SAE NET) 775 lb-ft 908 lb-ft
WEIGHT TO POWER 11.7 lb/hp 8.6 lb/hp

Looking at those stats, one might think the Rivian is in a different class of speed. 260 additional horse power? 130 additional lb-ft of torque? And significantly less weight/better aerodynamics? The Rivian, on paper, should trot away from the F150L.

But somehow it doesn’t. The 0-60 of the Rivian is an impressive 3.1 seconds, but the F150L is only 0.7 seconds behind at 3.8. The Rivian squeezes out of that huge stat imbalance only 0.7 seconds?

What’s more, is that the Lightning (Lariat ER) is actually faster than the Rivian from 30-60mph by ~0.1-2 seconds (the Platinum ER equals the Rivian from 30-60).

So the 0.7 second difference from 0-60 boils down to a 0.8/9 second difference only in the 0-30 acceleration. That 0-30 difference is interesting because (1) unlike the Rivian, the F150L does not yet have a launch sequence/software to address peak acceleration at launch, and (2) the F150L currently has a known toque steering/tune issue at launch, that can be addressed by a future software update (or aftermarket tune).

Once the F150L has a launch sequence and front suspension sorted, that 0.7 difference goes down to what? 0.5? 0.2?

pdxleaf · Aug 1, 2022

Gearing, rearend and transitional? Assuming neither one spins out, what else could it be? Weight distribution of the batteries?

cvalue13 · Aug 1, 2022

pdxleaf
Gearing, rearend and transitional? Assuming neither one spins out, what else could it be? Weight distribution of the batteries?

It’s odd, to me. But someone better versed can surely straighten me out.

‘til then it sure seems like either or both of Ford somehow squeezing a lot out of its power-to-weight, and Rivian somehow leaving some juice in the squeeze.

pdxleaf · Aug 1, 2022

cvalue13
It’s odd, to me. But someone better versed can surely straighten me out.

‘til then it sure seems like either or both of Ford somehow squeezing a lot out of its power-to-weight, and Rivian somehow leaving some juice in the squeeze.

Probably fast enough to get a ticket 😉

Dan S · Aug 1, 2022

Foo2rama
The Rivian is a sport utility vehicle that excels off-road (better then a Jeep rubicon ...

I would just caution you that this is a tricky comparison to make, and it depends greatly on what type of off-road driving you expect to do. If you are going to drive on some rough dirt roads or mud, any of those vehicles will do, but in a pinch I will take the Rubicon hands down.

I realize that the Rivian is getting good reviews in magazines, and it's easy to get caught up in new technology and specifications, but the biggest issues that I encounter when rock-crawling on steep, narrow, exposed trails, with people trying to pass me in the opposite direction, require a narrow vehicle with large approach and departure angles, and preferably an actual locking differential. Big tires, skid plates/rails, and overall strength/sturdiness are also critical. Clearance and breakover angle can be important, but people tend to put too much emphasis on them in my experience, since you can often compensate by choosing the right route. Manufacturers are constantly saying that their new technologies are just as good or compensate for these features, but they have been saying that for years, and it hasn't been true yet. Go to a mountain town and see what people are driving. The Rivian looks good, and probably better than what I drive, but it doesn't compare to the Wrangler for my money. My friend has a Rubicon, and I'm amazed at what he can do.

When you are trying to drive over huge boulders while looking over a sheer 500-foot drop, a gigantic RAM pickup is coming up the trail towards you, the adrenaline is pumping full blast through your body, and your jaw aches from gritting your teeth for the last hour, it will become a lot less theoretical and you will understand what I'm saying. 😀

Foo2rama · Aug 1, 2022

the answer is tires... also note the R1S is much faster then the R1T...

Lets go back for a second though, at the end of the day anything under 5 seconds is fast and we are looking at 1 that is deep into low 3's and the other in the 4's

TLDR its all bragging rights at that point. But If your wonder what 1 second difference looks like...

Dan S · Aug 1, 2022

Foo2rama
the answer is tires... also note the R1S is much faster then the R1T...

Lets go back for a second though, at the end of the day anything under 5 seconds is fast and we are looking at 1 that is deep into low 3's and the other in the 4's

TLDR its all bragging rights at that point. But If your wonder what 1 second difference looks like...

If that floats your boat, great. Personally, I couldn't care less about racing/speed/acceleration, especially in a truck. As long as I can get up to speed on a highway and maintain 75 mph on climbs up mountain passes, I'm good.

Foo2rama · Aug 1, 2022

Dan S
I would just caution you that this is a tricky comparison to make, and it depends greatly on what type of off-road driving you expect to do. If you are going to drive on some rough dirt roads or mud, any of those vehicles will do, but in a pinch I will take the Rubicon hands down.

I realize that the Rivian is getting good reviews in magazines, and it's easy to get caught up in new technology and specifications, but the biggest issues that I encounter when rock-crawling on steep, narrow, exposed trails, with people trying to pass me in the opposite direction, require a narrow vehicle with large approach and departure angles, and preferably an actual locking differential. Big tires, skid plates/rails, and overall strength/sturdiness are also critical. Clearance and breakover angle can be important, but people tend to put too much emphasis on them in my experience, since you can often compensate by choosing the right route. Manufacturers are constantly saying that their new technologies are just as good or compensate for these features, but they have been saying that for years, and it hasn't been true yet. The Rivian looks good, and probably better than what I drive, but it doesn't compare to the Wrangler for my money. My friend has a Rubicon, and I'm amazed at what he can do.

When you are trying to drive over huge boulders while looking over a sheer 500-foot drop, a gigantic RAM pickup is coming up the trail towards you, the adrenaline is pumping full blast through your body, and your jaw aches from gritting your teeth for the last hour, it will become a lot less theoretical and you will understand what I'm saying. 😀

The R1's are not much wider then most built jeeps at this point. We no longer have nice things like the XJ anymore... The rivian matches or exceeds break over and approach/depart vs a Rubi, it has the ability to put up to 250hp to any wheel and not give power to those that are spinning. Its amazing what 1 engine for each wheel can do... There are no sway bars to need to be detached on the Rivian as they use an active system instead. Every review I have seen of a Rivian vs a Rubi, the rubi loses...

I used to heavily off road in a solid axle ram full size 😉 Yes it was wide but the out of the box RTI was insane....

::edit:: not the best approach, but the higher ground clearance makes up for it a bit. Much better break over oddly

https://www.dnv.com/article/rivian-...ng-vs-hummer-ev1-vs-colorado-zr2-bison-211543

Dan S · Aug 1, 2022

Foo2rama
The R1's are not much wider then most built jeeps at this point. We no longer have nice things like the XJ anymore... The rivian matches or exceeds break over and approach/depart vs a Rubi, it has the ability to put up to 250hp to any wheel and not give power to those that are spinning. Its amazing what 1 engine for each wheel can do... There are no sway bars to need to be detached on the Rivian as they use an active system instead. Every review I have seen of a Rivian vs a Rubi, the rubi loses...

I used to heavily off road in a solid axle ram full size 😉 Yes it was wide but the out of the box RTI was insane....

Sorry, Phil. I checked those numbers, and that's just not right. Approach and departure angles are hugely different. And the electronic traction control just doesn't compare to a locker. Get out into the mountains and try it in real life and then let me know.

Foo2rama · Aug 1, 2022

Dan S
Sorry, Phil. I checked those numbers, and that's just not right. Approach and departure angles are hugely different. And the electronic traction control just doesn't compare to a locker. Get out into the mountains and try it in real life and then let me know.

::edit:: not the best approach, but the higher ground clearance makes up for it a bit. Much better break over oddly

https://www.dnv.com/article/rivian-...ng-vs-hummer-ev1-vs-colorado-zr2-bison-211543

I've had detriot lockers on my ram, and I have driven a Rivian offroad in some crawling...

it works, it really works... check this video on the older software then I drove.

Dan S · Aug 1, 2022

Foo2rama
::edit:: not the best approach, but the higher ground clearance makes up for it a bit. Much better break over oddly

https://www.dnv.com/article/rivian-...ng-vs-hummer-ev1-vs-colorado-zr2-bison-211543

I've had detriot lockers on my ram, and I have driven a Rivian offroad in some crawling...

it works, it really works... check this video on the older software then I drove.

That guy is very dramatic, but those roads look like nothing, and the Rivian isn't doing very well. He says it's scary and talks about big rocks, and I just have to laugh. But like I said, go for it if you really believe it. Unlike a drag race, off-road capability really matters, especially when you're out there by yourself with no cell reception and nobody to help you.

Good job embedding the video so quickly BTW. I always struggle with that. 😀

Foo2rama · Aug 1, 2022

Dan S
That guy is very dramatic, but those roads look like nothing, and the Rivian isn't doing very well.

Yes Doug is, but that hill is about 30 degrees... I've been at that hill.