UPDATE: Ford Lightning (Full Electric F-150) -> [NOT] refusing my order

Braindrain · Oct 7, 2023

Foo2rama
Learning all the stuff that no one tells you about charging. Which is a downside.

I don't own an EV so I'd love to hear it.

Evitzee · Oct 7, 2023

watchyouwant
All these Monster Trucks are just ugly. Why would anybody buy one , unless it's for Farming/construction business?

Why? Partly because of the Chicken Tax from 1964. Google it. That tariff, still in effect, has had the effect of pushing US makers to build bigger and bigger trucks. Unintended consequences, but not likely to be repealed anytime soon, it's too valuable to the makers, that's where their profits come from. Ford doesn't even sell a normal car in the US anymore, just trucks, SUVs, and a few Mustangs, but no 4 door family sedans.

This same type of nonsense is being built into current EV business policies, all the crazy tariffs and tax credits will have one effect long term, higher prices than they should be.

As always follow the money.

BlackTalon · Oct 8, 2023

Following the money led me to a bunch of Omega collectors 😁

Foo2rama · Oct 8, 2023

Braindrain
I don't own an EV so I'd love to hear it.

TLDR

level 2 chargers on big vehicles only give 10 miles an hour. For most things they get 15-20. The Rivian is not small.

high speed chargers aka level 3 are not that common outside transportation corridors. But they can add 200 miles in like 30 minutes. Luckily there are 8 about 4 miles from me and minimal lines from 10am to 8pm.

max range is a misnomer as most times you only charge to 80 percent as the time it takes to charge from 10-80 is the same time it takes to go from 80-100.

most places do not have enough infrastructure for the people that live in apartments and do not have a home charger.

kippyk · Oct 9, 2023

Interesting discussion. Every couple of years I re-evaluate electric vehicles to see the progress being made as I decide on my next vehicle. The pros and cons still lead me to a state of indecision. The one question I have not ever found a good answer to is this:

ICE vs Electric: What is the total cost of ownership over 10 years? ICE has more maintenance and gas costs. Electric vehicles cost more, you need to install a charger, but what about the cost of replacing the battery when it goes bad in 7 years or whenever?

I find Volvo's approach really interesting. On some of their vehicles you can select four different power options: ICE, hybrid, plug-in hybrid, and pure electric. The reason they offer 4 is that there is no obvious best choice.

vbrad26 · Oct 9, 2023

kippyk
ICE vs Electric: What is the total cost of ownership over 10 years? ICE has more maintenance and gas costs. Electric vehicles cost more, you need to install a charger, but what about the cost of replacing the battery when it goes bad in 7 years or whenever?

.

I'll comment on this part. Tesla's battery warranty seems pretty decent, on the surface.
All models are 8 years or anywhere between 100,000-150,00 miles. That is better than any ICE car on the road as far as I'm aware.
As for replacing them out of warranty? Google says anywhere between $5,000 and $10.000. But are SUPPOSED to last between 10 and 20 years.
Still much cheaper than a new car, and similar to full ICE replacement costs.
And the cheapest Model 3 is really not so much out of line with other new car prices, and that is not factoring in potential tax credits or fuel savings.
But hard to say. The oldest mass produced Tesla is what, just a tad over 10 years old now? So who knows...
I'm also considering making the move whenever the time comes to replace my current daily driver...my going on 9 year old GTI.

Foo2rama · Oct 9, 2023

kippyk
Interesting discussion. Every couple of years I re-evaluate electric vehicles to see the progress being made as I decide on my next vehicle. The pros and cons still lead me to a state of indecision. The one question I have not ever found a good answer to is this:

ICE vs Electric: What is the total cost of ownership over 10 years? ICE has more maintenance and gas costs. Electric vehicles cost more, you need to install a charger, but what about the cost of replacing the battery when it goes bad in 7 years or whenever?

I find Volvo's approach really interesting. On some of their vehicles you can select four different power options: ICE, hybrid, plug-in hybrid, and pure electric. The reason they offer 4 is that there is no obvious best choice.

Generally hybrid will be less costs of ownership assuming same starting price.

Oil changes and tuneups do not exist, you have a longer period where you need to lube the moving parts in the drive train. There are much fewer moving parts in an electric. Electrics should be easier on brakes as they rely on regeneration from the motors to do most of the braking.

Most studies coming out now are showing about 1% degradation of battery life per 16,000 miles, so to get to 10% range reduction you need to drive 160,000 miles.

even with my giant pig of an electric truck and paying relatively high public charger rates I am paying approx the equivalent of 35 miles to the gallon. If you can charge at home then your "fuel" costs are substantially lower. Keep in mind mind is pretty much worst case ( Electric Hummer is worse) for power use per mile.

I am not a pro EV person at all. But I can tell you if you have a home charger or the ability to install one, and you rarely drive over 200 miles a day there is zero downside.

pdxleaf · Oct 9, 2023

Climate is a factor also. In the Pacifuc NW, it's generally not extreme cold or heat, which are harder on batteries. How you drive is a factor, local stop and go is easier on the battery than higher speed highway. How you charge is a factor, as fast charging is harder on the battery than 240 or even 120v charging.

Results may vary, as they say.

kippyk · Oct 10, 2023

Another important consideration is the resale value of a used electric vs ICE. Resale value is one of the biggest factors is calculating total cost of ownership of a vehicle over its lifetime. I would expect the prospect of replacing an $10,000 EV battery at year 10 would make purchasing an older used EV not desirable. But then again, in 10 years I am sure the resale value of my car will be the least of my worries.

ghce · Oct 10, 2023

kippyk
Another important consideration is the resale value of a used electric vs ICE. Resale value is one of the biggest factors is calculating total cost of ownership of a vehicle over its lifetime. I would expect the prospect of replacing an $10,000 EV battery at year 10 would make purchasing an older used EV not desirable. But then again, in 10 years I am sure the resale value of my car will be the least of my worries.

In 10 years I suspect we will all be buying water wings and water tight storm cellars 😗

All joking aside I don't think the equation yet stacks up to go electric, as you say resale will likely be close to zero unless the cost of lithium batteries drops to a 1/4 and being that lithium is itself a rare commodity and that the expected world wide demand will have exponentially grown in 10 years I can only see the price increasing drastically for replacement batteries.
Hence my decision to buy a compromise Hybrid car which whilst still utilising lithium cells they are not spanked as hard as in a full electric and should survive much better and even if they don't there is still a petrol engine doing the work.

Another consideration and one I have probably commented on previously is that the Japanese auto industry being long term thinkers have not committed their production to wholesale electric but are firmly in the camp of continuing developments in Hybrid technology until the real long term solution is found which they don't believe to be electric but something else, Hydrogen being one probable or something other.

rob#1 · Oct 11, 2023

Foo2rama
TLDR

level 2 chargers on big vehicles only give 10 miles an hour. For most things they get 15-20. The Rivian is not small.

high speed chargers aka level 3 are not that common outside transportation corridors. But they can add 200 miles in like 30 minutes. Luckily there are 8 about 4 miles from me and minimal lines from 10am to 8pm.

max range is a misnomer as most times you only charge to 80 percent as the time it takes to charge from 10-80 is the same time it takes to go from 80-100.

most places do not have enough infrastructure for the people that live in apartments and do not have a home charger.

Nice synopsis 👍 - been looking at EV for a while but still on the fence.

Foo2rama · Oct 11, 2023

rob#1
Nice synopsis 👍 - been looking at EV for a while but still on the fence.

If I had a home charger there are zero issues. Also your local conditions with chargers will vary. My suggestion is find out you primary local charging networks and then look at the speeds. Find out your charge per hour on L2 stations. 6.6 and 3 kw are the most common. Beware of shared 6.6 as those will drop to 3 if someone is using the other plug.

Evitzee · Nov 6, 2025

Just saw an article in the Wall Street Journal that said Ford execs are considering axing the F1 Lightning pickup truck permanently. Just no demand at the price, the dealers can't give them away. Ford has lost $13 billion on their EV program since 2023, that's just not sustainable.

vbrad26 · Nov 6, 2025

Had they kept that cheap Pro model, that would have been great. That actually seemed like a pretty good value at the time.
I know RT1's are selling now in the $50's with relatively low mileage. Does it do anything better than the Ford?
What does this mean for Scout and their truck? I had one "reserved" but I actually switched it to the SUV as a potential Bronco replacement in a couple of years.
But EV's in general just seem to be tanking at the moment.

pdxleaf · Nov 6, 2025

I wonder if the decision to stop the Lightening was influenced by Ford's six trips to China.

“It’s the most humbling thing I’ve ever seen,” Farley said, speaking of his trips to China at the Aspen Ideas Summit on Friday. During an interview with the journalist Walter Isaacson, Farley said he’s been to China six or seven times in the past year to scope out the competition."

https://insideevs.com/news/764318/ford-ceo-china-evs-humbled/

Foo2rama · Nov 6, 2025

vbrad26
Had they kept that cheap Pro model, that would have been great. That actually seemed like a pretty good value at the time.
I know RT1's are selling now in the $50's with relatively low mileage. Does it do anything better than the Ford?
What does this mean for Scout and their truck? I had one "reserved" but I actually switched it to the SUV as a potential Bronco replacement in a couple of years.
But EV's in general just seem to be tanking at the moment.

One of the problems with Rivian is a lot of people are getting out of the preorder delivery. We got them for 70k (less for T’s)AND got the 7,500 rebate. So 60k on a T with fair miles is actually almost break even after 2-3 years of ownership.

I’ve had mine over 2 years at this point and love my S. With 16k miles I can get out and break even.