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Upcoming Longines 13ZN ref. 4270 Mushroom Pusher

  1. rondeaux Oct 21, 2022

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    I saw this pop up on someone's IG story recently but can't remember who. There was an inference that there was some controversy or at least questions about this watch. Does anyone have any more info?

    There certainly aren't many of these 4720s out there and I haven't seen this one (or any part of it) before. IIRC, the 3 stars might have been a South American thing. I'm a little surprised Christie's doesn't have the extract information and that they don't have a movement picture, but otherwise there isn't anything jumping out at me.


    upload_2022-10-21_12-12-57.png
    upload_2022-10-21_12-13-17.png upload_2022-10-21_12-13-37.png


    https://www.christies.com/lot/lot-6...k&intObjectID=6394585&from=salessummary&lid=1
     
  2. DirtyDozen12 Thanks, mystery donor! Oct 21, 2022

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    No more information, unfortunately. While the style of the blue hands appears correct, to me, I am skeptical that this dial would have originally been paired with blue hands. And yes, three stars and printing that mentions jewels can be seen on other dials that were intended for the South American market. To me, the dial raises no red flags in terms of originality, however, I would want to inquire further to see if any archival information points towards this dial originally appearing in this case. Overall, an intriguing example. Here is a time-only tre tacche from the same period, with similar features, and an original invoice to Peru in 1940. Note that the dial has fonts that are typical of the dial maker Fluckiger, and not Stern Freres.

    upload_2022-10-21_13-14-0.png upload_2022-10-21_13-14-15.png
    https://watchcharts.com/listing/796...e-watch-black-stern-dial-gilt-arabic-numerals
     
  3. divetime Nov 4, 2022

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    I inspected the watch today and to the best of my knowledge I am convinced that it is a very rare and original example! Since the grey dial is very light overall, I can imagine that the blue hands were also originally delivered like this. I have no doubts about the dial itself and everything seems - as far as I could see without opening the watch - to be in a nice original condition! The future owner can only be congratulated in my opinion!

    BA3B9ED6-AB6D-4E03-B56E-40A1AE2F34E4.jpeg 27AC1651-0141-4A19-9746-EFE39C172ADA.jpeg 311A62F4-B241-48D3-9B72-D4FCBB1669A7.jpeg
     
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  4. Radiumpassion Nov 5, 2022

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    Thank you for the assessment @divetime

    It would be interesting to know witch part
    of the world it was invoiced to:)
     
    divetime likes this.
  5. DirtyDozen12 Thanks, mystery donor! Nov 5, 2022

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    @divetime Just to be clear, do you believe that this example originally came from the factory with a combination of blue and silver hands?

    Given that such a combination is highly atypical, it seems more reasonable (to me) to assume that some of the hands are not as they left the factory.
     
  6. divetime Nov 6, 2022

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  7. DirtyDozen12 Thanks, mystery donor! Nov 6, 2022

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    @divetime Thank you for the response. In my experience, Longines usually paired grey dials with silver or white hands during the late 1930s to mid-1940s. Additionally, it is very atypical for a 13ZN to have a handset with two different colors. At least the design of the hands is typical.

    "If a beautiful specimen (and in my opinion this is one) does come up in an auction, we should not discuss it negatively but be happy to be surprised by a watch that is beautiful and previously unknown in the market."

    Unfortuantely, I fail to see your argument with respect to talking negatively about watches that come up for auction. Firstly, beauty is subjective. So, whose opinion should we defer to? If I think that a watch is beautiful and you do not, should my opinion matter more? Secondly, why should a determination of beauty preclude a critical discussion? Thirdly, beauty and originality seem to be separate issues. A watch can be deemed beautiful or not, independent of its originality. There are countless examples of this. Fourthly, one can value both beauty and originality. And I believe that honestly valuing originality demands an openness to discussion and criticism. Fifthly, I am not sure that questioning the originality of a watch necessarily implies a negative judgement. I think that this presupposes a universal preference for originality, of which there are numerous counterexamples.
     
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  8. BlueHands Nov 6, 2022

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    cristos71 and divetime like this.
  9. divetime Nov 6, 2022

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    Basically, I already believe that questioning originality implies a negative judgement. In this respect, we have different opinions.
    Possibly the hands are original, possibly not.
    My intention was merely to justify, why I would accept the watch as it is for myself.
    So far, no evidence has been presented to me as to why they could or should not be original....
    It is perfectly fine to have controversial discussions.
    Nevertheless, I think it's a shame if an exceptional piece - and this watch is indisputably that - is possibly given a "negative touch" by an opinion-based discussion.
    That is my personal feeling and I ask you to respect it, just as I respect your opinion.
    I don't have to have the last word on this either.

    Hopefully, the new owner will have a blast with the beautiful piece. Regardless of whether there are different opinions about its originality.
     
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  10. divetime Nov 6, 2022

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    thank you, I know the article which is a fantastic research! By the way I know the author personally and just met him. We both inspected the watch physically and independent from each other and discussed it later. We both would be fine with it as it is.
     
    Edited Nov 6, 2022
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  11. divetime Nov 6, 2022

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    to Peru in 1940
     
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  12. DirtyDozen12 Thanks, mystery donor! Nov 6, 2022

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    Though we may disagree about the atypicality of blue hands paired with grey dials, I think that we probably agree about the atypicality of a combination of blue and silver hands. In my view, if something is atpyical, then one's default position should be skepticism. If sufficient evidence is presented that explains the atypicality, then it would seem reasonable to change one's position from skepticism to acceptance. In the absence of such evidence, I find it difficult to defend a default position of acceptance. While it would be nice to present evidence that shows why an atypicality could or should not be original, failing to do so should not imply that the atypicality is any more likely to be explainable or correct.
     
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  13. cchen Nov 7, 2022

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    182.7k CHF all-in
    Clearly new owner didn't have any issues with the discrepancies on such a rare and beautiful example
     
  14. divetime Nov 7, 2022

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    The bidders of this auction - and there were numerous ones over 100 k as well - obviously saw the watch less critically...
    The result: 183,000 Fr. Swiss including premium

    A017D4C1-4CFA-4335-9EB1-C0058977C318.jpeg
     
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  15. BlueHands Nov 7, 2022

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    This can be a never ending discussion, so the new owner likes it as it is. I wonder that the Longines archives didn't confirm this unusual hands pairing. This reference is of course very rare and I like the dial also but for my part and for the high auction result it has to be 100 % original, without guesswork about the hands. I think you can question it critically. I am glad that there was no possibility for me to catch the watch.
     
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  16. janice&fred Nov 7, 2022

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    Think again. There is only one acceptable opinion, and that is this watch is more desirable than a Paul Newman Daytona.
     
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  17. BlueHands Nov 7, 2022

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    Be sure I know the importance of the watch but is it not allowed to question anything? This is no franken watch discussion here, but the hands combination is unusual and I am highly interested if the watch has left the factory so. Maybe the question will be solved one day....
     
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  18. Zapatta Nov 7, 2022

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    This is what happens when you see the watch less criticaly..
     
    Screenshot_20221107_205607.jpg
  19. cristos71 Nov 7, 2022

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    I love perezcope, analytical analysis in the extreme :thumbsup:
     
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  20. divetime Nov 8, 2022

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    copy out of an official Longines sales catalogue 1941 (one year apart, from the watch in question),
    black dial, blued steel luminous hour and minute hand, silver hand at small seconds as far as I can see...

    Bildschirmfoto 2022-11-08 um 11.00.45.png
     
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