Upcoming Longines 13ZN ref. 4270 Mushroom Pusher

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I saw this pop up on someone's IG story recently but can't remember who. There was an inference that there was some controversy or at least questions about this watch. Does anyone have any more info?

There certainly aren't many of these 4720s out there and I haven't seen this one (or any part of it) before. IIRC, the 3 stars might have been a South American thing. I'm a little surprised Christie's doesn't have the extract information and that they don't have a movement picture, but otherwise there isn't anything jumping out at me.





https://www.christies.com/lot/lot-6...k&intObjectID=6394585&from=salessummary&lid=1
 
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No more information, unfortunately. While the style of the blue hands appears correct, to me, I am skeptical that this dial would have originally been paired with blue hands. And yes, three stars and printing that mentions jewels can be seen on other dials that were intended for the South American market. To me, the dial raises no red flags in terms of originality, however, I would want to inquire further to see if any archival information points towards this dial originally appearing in this case. Overall, an intriguing example. Here is a time-only tre tacche from the same period, with similar features, and an original invoice to Peru in 1940. Note that the dial has fonts that are typical of the dial maker Fluckiger, and not Stern Freres.


https://watchcharts.com/listing/796...e-watch-black-stern-dial-gilt-arabic-numerals
 
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I inspected the watch today and to the best of my knowledge I am convinced that it is a very rare and original example! Since the grey dial is very light overall, I can imagine that the blue hands were also originally delivered like this. I have no doubts about the dial itself and everything seems - as far as I could see without opening the watch - to be in a nice original condition! The future owner can only be congratulated in my opinion!

 
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@divetime Just to be clear, do you believe that this example originally came from the factory with a combination of blue and silver hands?

Given that such a combination is highly atypical, it seems more reasonable (to me) to assume that some of the hands are not as they left the factory.
 
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@divetime Just to be clear, do you believe that this example originally came from the factory with a combination of blue and silver hands?

This is just a speculation. The combination of this watch is very untypical. But after holding the watch in my hands and inspecting it myself, I think it is possible that the watch was actually delivered like this. The dial itself is a lighter shade of grey than I expected or suspected.

With a silvered dial, the watch should have had blue hands. With a black dial, silver hands. But what with a light grey dial?
On the one hand, the whole watch looks very honest and untouched, and on the other hand, since the luminous material in the hands does not seem to have changed, it has a similar structure to the luminous material on the dial, I personally have no problem with this combination. My own conclusion is that it is possible that this is how it was delivered in its time.

Of course, an interested buyer has to do his own homework and I am not responsible.

To me it is a very rare and unusual combination of a super rare watch. I myself cannot recall seeing a similar example in any other auction in the last 40 years. So it is possibly a really rare opportunity.
Beautiful old waterproof 13 ZN chronographs almost never come up in auctions. This may be due to their very small number of pieces and perhaps also to the fact that nice examples quickly change hands privately without even appearing at auction.
If a beautiful specimen (and in my opinion this is one) does come up in an auction, we should not discuss it negatively but be happy to be surprised by a watch that is beautiful and previously unknown in the market.

The Longines company itself is so incredibly helpful and supportive towards its collectors. If, for example, a company like Rolex were to provide the same information to its collectors, I believe a large percentage of the market for vintage Rolex watches would collapse....

In my conclusion, I am very happy that such a watch appears at all and I like it. At the same time, unfortunately, it is not my own watch, nor have I ever seen it before. If I were looking for a 4270 and had the financial means, I would not hesitate to bid on it.

After all, I hope it will achieve a really good result. On the one hand, because it is a really historic and rare watch (as the supposedly first really waterproof chronograph) and, on the other hand, because it would get the recognition it deserves. The new owner can and should be very proud of it. For me, it's a much more desirable watch than any Rolex Daytona or Paul Newman - but I admit I'm not neutral....

ps.: according to what I have heard it was originally delivered to Peru...
 
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@divetime Thank you for the response. In my experience, Longines usually paired grey dials with silver or white hands during the late 1930s to mid-1940s. Additionally, it is very atypical for a 13ZN to have a handset with two different colors. At least the design of the hands is typical.

"If a beautiful specimen (and in my opinion this is one) does come up in an auction, we should not discuss it negatively but be happy to be surprised by a watch that is beautiful and previously unknown in the market."

Unfortuantely, I fail to see your argument with respect to talking negatively about watches that come up for auction. Firstly, beauty is subjective. So, whose opinion should we defer to? If I think that a watch is beautiful and you do not, should my opinion matter more? Secondly, why should a determination of beauty preclude a critical discussion? Thirdly, beauty and originality seem to be separate issues. A watch can be deemed beautiful or not, independent of its originality. There are countless examples of this. Fourthly, one can value both beauty and originality. And I believe that honestly valuing originality demands an openness to discussion and criticism. Fifthly, I am not sure that questioning the originality of a watch necessarily implies a negative judgement. I think that this presupposes a universal preference for originality, of which there are numerous counterexamples.
 
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@divetime Thank you for the response. In my experience, Longines usually paired grey dials with silver or white hands during the late 1930s to mid-1940s. Additionally, it is very atypical for a 13ZN to have a handset with two different colors. At least the design of the hands is typical.

"If a beautiful specimen (and in my opinion this is one) does come up in an auction, we should not discuss it negatively but be happy to be surprised by a watch that is beautiful and previously unknown in the market."

Unfortuantely, I fail to see your argument with respect to talking negatively about watches that come up for auction. Firstly, beauty is subjective. So, whose opinion should we defer to? If I think that a watch is beautiful and you do not, should my opinion matter more? Secondly, why should a determination of beauty preclude a critical discussion? Thirdly, beauty and originality seem to be separate issues. A watch can be deemed beautiful or not, independent of its originality. There are countless examples of this. Fourthly, one can value both beauty and originality. And I believe that honestly valuing originality demands an openness to discussion and criticism. Fifthly, I am not sure that questioning the originality of a watch necessarily implies a negative judgement. I think that this presupposes a universal preference for originality, of which there are numerous counterexamples.

Basically, I already believe that questioning originality implies a negative judgement. In this respect, we have different opinions.
Possibly the hands are original, possibly not.
My intention was merely to justify, why I would accept the watch as it is for myself.
So far, no evidence has been presented to me as to why they could or should not be original....
It is perfectly fine to have controversial discussions.
Nevertheless, I think it's a shame if an exceptional piece - and this watch is indisputably that - is possibly given a "negative touch" by an opinion-based discussion.
That is my personal feeling and I ask you to respect it, just as I respect your opinion.
I don't have to have the last word on this either.

Hopefully, the new owner will have a blast with the beautiful piece. Regardless of whether there are different opinions about its originality.
 
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Here is a nice article regarding especially the 13ZN waterproof versions with so called "mushroom pushers". Don't know if this article is known so far? To me the combination of the grey dial with blued and silver hands is somehow strange. I also have never seen this before.
https://revolutionwatch.com/the-ult...13zn-pulsanti-ad-ombrello-or-mushroom-pusher/
thank you, I know the article which is a fantastic research! By the way I know the author personally and just met him. We both inspected the watch physically and independent from each other and discussed it later. We both would be fine with it as it is.
Edited:
 
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So far, no evidence has been presented to me as to why they could or should not be original....
Though we may disagree about the atypicality of blue hands paired with grey dials, I think that we probably agree about the atypicality of a combination of blue and silver hands. In my view, if something is atpyical, then one's default position should be skepticism. If sufficient evidence is presented that explains the atypicality, then it would seem reasonable to change one's position from skepticism to acceptance. In the absence of such evidence, I find it difficult to defend a default position of acceptance. While it would be nice to present evidence that shows why an atypicality could or should not be original, failing to do so should not imply that the atypicality is any more likely to be explainable or correct.
 
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182.7k CHF all-in
Clearly new owner didn't have any issues with the discrepancies on such a rare and beautiful example
 
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The bidders of this auction - and there were numerous ones over 100 k as well - obviously saw the watch less critically...
The result: 183,000 Fr. Swiss including premium

 
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This can be a never ending discussion, so the new owner likes it as it is. I wonder that the Longines archives didn't confirm this unusual hands pairing. This reference is of course very rare and I like the dial also but for my part and for the high auction result it has to be 100 % original, without guesswork about the hands. I think you can question it critically. I am glad that there was no possibility for me to catch the watch.
 
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I think you can question it critically.

Think again. There is only one acceptable opinion, and that is this watch is more desirable than a Paul Newman Daytona.
 
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Think again. There is only one acceptable opinion, and that is this watch is more desirable than a Paul Newman Daytona.
Be sure I know the importance of the watch but is it not allowed to question anything? This is no franken watch discussion here, but the hands combination is unusual and I am highly interested if the watch has left the factory so. Maybe the question will be solved one day....
 
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The bidders of this auction - and there were numerous ones over 100 k as well - obviously saw the watch less critically...

This is what happens when you see the watch less criticaly..
 
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copy out of an official Longines sales catalogue 1941 (one year apart, from the watch in question),
black dial, blued steel luminous hour and minute hand, silver hand at small seconds as far as I can see...