"Unicorn" or "Franken"? In any case an interesting story.

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The story was out there, sure, but afaik nobody except insiders knew Aurel Bacs was involved from the very beginning. Maybe you knew, others didn't as it was never revealed publicly.

Cheers
Jose

No I didn't know anything about how the watch was sourced or sold. I'm not a big mover and shaker in the megabuck Rolex world.
 
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I don't know how much was or wasn't known prior to this article being posted, and while the style is obviously provocative, I enjoyed reading the careful forensic analysis. And obviously, I think it's impressive that the author (like several OF members) carefully tracks sales of the watches in which he specializes. It benefits collectors that he is doing this sort of work. If we can't trust the integrity of the famous influencers/auctioneers/dealers, perhaps the fear of being exposed will help keep them more honest.
 
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I don't know how much was or wasn't known prior to this article being posted, and while the style is obviously provocative, I enjoyed reading the careful forensic analysis. And obviously, I think it's impressive that the author (like several OF members) carefully tracks sales of the watches in which he specializes. It benefits collectors that he is doing this sort of work. If we can't trust the integrity of the famous influencers/auctioneers/dealers, perhaps the fear of being exposed will help keep them more honest.
Too often these are PM conversations within brand communities. There were many in the UG group for years snickering at auctions, dealers, Hodinkee hype and their sales events. Some went public. It actually saddens me that we’ve not had a good dust up in quite a while.
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I don't know how much was or wasn't known prior to this article being posted, and while the style is obviously provocative, I enjoyed reading the careful forensic analysis. And obviously, I think it's impressive that the author (like several OF members) carefully tracks sales of the watches in which he specializes. It benefits collectors that he is doing this sort of work. If we can't trust the integrity of the famous influencers/auctioneers/dealers, perhaps the fear of being exposed will help keep them more honest.

I found the article informative too, and I learned a few things along the way too. As the saying goes, "sunlight is the best disinfectant" and having this article shed some light on the sale has been quite illuminating.
 
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I knew about the restoration (to be honest, I preferred the dial that was on it before) ut the is the first time that I see the side by side between good milerighe pusher and the white gold of the unicorn. Jeeez they look bad.

Shame. It would have been still a great auction result even as a prototype, instead there is this big Franken shadow on top of it.
 
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I knew about the restoration

There was so much talk in NYC a few years ago among high end Rolex collectors about this watch and its restoration that I simply assumed it was common knowledge within the big bucks collecting community, and certainly among the high rollers who might be buying this sort of stuff at auction. Heck I even heard discussion about the watch among high end collectors in the Philippines. I wouldn't be so quick to assume whoever was bidding on it wasn't aware as well. I have not read about any big legal blowout between buyer and seller afterwards. To me my reaction to this article seems justified. A whole lot of noise but little substance. If the buyer was unaware and felt hoodwinked, there would be much more to read about it.
 
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If the buyer was unaware and felt hoodwinked, there would be much more to read about it.

Not if the buyer wants to unload it onto someone else.
 
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There was so much talk in NYC a few years ago among high end Rolex collectors about this watch and its restoration that I simply assumed it was common knowledge within the big bucks collecting community, and certainly among the high rollers who might be buying this sort of stuff at auction. Heck I even heard discussion about the watch among high end collectors in the Philippines. I wouldn't be so quick to assume whoever was bidding on it wasn't aware as well. I have not read about any big legal blowout between buyer and seller afterwards. To me my reaction to this article seems justified. A whole lot of noise but little substance. If the buyer was unaware and felt hoodwinked, there would be much more to read about it.
It may have been common knowledge among the groups that you mentioned, but it seems to be news to many people on this forum. While I think that the noise-to-substance ratio is debatable, I do not think that there is any debate that the article brought this issue to a wider audience. It is difficult to see how that is a bad thing. Sure, the article could have been written differently, but that says nothing of its overall value in terms of communicating certain key pieces of information.

I wouldn't be so quick to assume whoever was bidding on it wasn't aware as well.
I am not sure who would assume this, given that Phillips published an interview with Goldberger, in which he mentioned that certain parts were replaced, prior to the auction. In my view, whether the people bidding were aware or not is not the primary issue. The primary issue is that Phillips was slow to publicly disclose that parts had been replaced. The significance of this arguably extends beyond the subject watch/lot. It calls into question Phillips' practice of transparency about the originality/condition of its lots. This assumes that Phillips is capable of, and motivated to, thoroughly assess the originality/condition of its lots.

A topic that is not discussed at length in the article, is the way in which Phillips ultimately disclosed that parts had been replaced, namely via an interview with Goldberger and the founder of Children Action. In my view, it is very strange that such significant information about the top lot would first come to light in an interview, mixed in with questions such as, “Phillips: Bernard, tell us what motivated you to found Children Action?” and “Phillips: When and where did you meet for the first time? What did you discuss during this first encounter?” In a way, the broader focus of the interview (beyond “The Unicorn”) has the effect of downplaying the significance of the information that is being presented (i.e. that “The Unicorn” has numerous replaced parts).

Another strange aspect of the interview/disclosure is that it leaves the reader uncertain about whether or not Phillips knew the answers to its own questions. The following question seems to suggest that Phillips did know: “Phillips: When [“The Unicorn”] was finally yours, what did you first do?” Goldberger’s answer to this question is the first and only time in the interview in which the “restoration” is addressed.
 
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Sure, the article could have been written differently,

And that was the point of my critique. No? All the key points in the rest of your post have already been discussed and I was in agreement. Why quote me? I posted I agree with the criticisms on the negatives of auctions and high end watch dealings.
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My view is that guys who become respected go to sources of knowledge, should not allow themselves to be associated with the flogging of high priced Franken Watches….

I think it is fair to say that he is beyond "associated".

There is a crew out of Italy that's involved in the ringing of Daytona's and the faking of parts.

All the major auction houses know.

Phillips and Aurel 100% know and arguably are involved given what's passed through the house over the last few years.

The only way Hodinkee don't "know" is if they are looking the other way.

The baffling thing to me is that anyone buys the bullshit that any of them are selling - a statement that applies equally to the watches and the guff spouted to and by Hodinkee et al.
 
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And that was the point of my critique. No? All the key points in the rest of your post have already been discussed and I was in agreement. Why quote me? I posted I agree with the criticisms on the negatives of auctions and high end watch dealings.
I quoted you because the following two statements seem to imply that the article was pointless since everyone who needed to know already knew.
There was so much talk in NYC a few years ago among high end Rolex collectors about this watch and its restoration that I simply assumed it was common knowledge within the big bucks collecting community, and certainly among the high rollers who might be buying this sort of stuff at auction.
A whole lot of noise but little substance.
This differs from your earlier criticisms about sensationalism and conjecture. Maybe my interpretation was wrong?
 
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I quoted you because the following two statements seem to imply that the article was pointless since everyone who needed to know already knew.

Well of course everyone who needed to know, that is the bidders, certainly were aware. The only benefit to this article, if there is one, is that online readers can now read again how high end big bucks watch dealing and auctions work, which can be shady at times. There is no argument there. However, this is hardly breaking news considering the controversies of the past that have been well publicized.
 
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Well of course everyone who needed to know, that is the bidders, certainly were aware.

You don't know that. As the recent Cartier Trash in NY has shown, lots of people were aware of the issues after reading my article (that's why it performed so badly) but the watch nevertheless found a buyer who had been groomed by Phillips months ahead of the auction. Aurel Bacs once told me their high end customers don't read about watches on the internet. Obviously, this isn't the case anymore but you get the idea.


The only benefit to this article, if there is one...

Dude, you keep saying that. You didn't even know Bacs was in it from the very beginning. So you and others definitely learned something new, yet you keep downplaying the article. Also, Goldberger used a dial that wasn't available at the time of production. I bet you didn't know that either. Generally, I don't get your point. What exactly is it that you're trying to criticise? Can you articulate that in a single sentence?

As of now, the vibe I'm getting from you is that of a water carrier for those who lie and deceive...

Cheers
Jose
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how high end big bucks watch dealing and auctions work
@janice&fred This needs to be the title of your next article, which details what's been going on. I am confident that many online readers would be interested.
 
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Generally, I don't get your point. What exactly is it that you're trying to criticise? Can you articulate that in a single sentence?

As of now, the vibe I'm getting from you is that of a water carrier for those who lie and deceive...

I already did but will do it again just for you. My criticism of our article is its sensationalism and conjecture. That's one sentence no? Your article also contains your opinion, just as I have posted mine in this thread. As for your "vibe" of me as a "water carrier for those who lie and deceive", that's not surprising by one who employs conjecture in their writing.
 
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Well of course everyone who needed to know, that is the bidders, certainly were aware.

Now who's making conjectures?