Undervalued watches

bazamu · Feb 29, 2020

In my humble (but strong) opinion, Movado M95s are the most undervalued watches on the market right now. The most desirable configurations are impossibly rare, the case was made by Borgel (same maker that Patek used for years, and the M95 case is very close to the Patek 1463), and the movement was in-house and holds the record for first modular movement...they're the total package and can still be had for the price of a 145.022-69 Speedmaster (no shade being thrown to the -69 Speedies, but they're far more plentiful and powered by the 861).

Dan S · Feb 29, 2020

ChicagoFrog
In my humble (but strong) opinion, Movado M95s are the most undervalued watches on the market right now. The most desirable configurations are impossibly rare, the case was made by Borgel (same maker that Patek used for years, and the M95 case is very close to the Patek 1463), and the movement was in-house and holds the record for first modular movement...they're the total package and can still be had for the price of a 145.022-69 Speedmaster (no shade being thrown to the -69 Speedies, but they're far more plentiful and powered by the 861).

I love these pieces, but IMHO it's clear to me that case size is holding them back, and I'm not sure that will change any time soon. If they were 37-38mm, it would be a whole different story. The 35mm size just doesn't match the modern aesthetic.

The good news is that if you like 35mm chronographs, these are an amazing buy. 👍

bazamu · Feb 29, 2020

Dan S
I love these pieces, but IMHO it's clear to me that case size is holding them back, and I'm not sure that will change any time soon. If they were 37-38mm, it would be a whole different story. The 35mm size just doesn't match the modern aesthetic.

I suppose I hear that, but I think 35-36mm is a sweet spot for dressier watches (which the M95's certainly fall into). I think it has much more to do with their limited supply, so many don't have the opportunity to see them in the metal and therefore aren't ready to pull the trigger immediately when they come up for sale.

wagudc · Feb 29, 2020

ChicagoFrog
In my humble (but strong) opinion, Movado M95s are the most undervalued watches on the market right now. The most desirable configurations are impossibly rare, the case was made by Borgel (same maker that Patek used for years, and the M95 case is very close to the Patek 1463), and the movement was in-house and holds the record for first modular movement...they're the total package and can still be had for the price of a 145.022-69 Speedmaster (no shade being thrown to the -69 Speedies, but they're far more plentiful and powered by the 861).

Love the Movado Hat logo. Nothing they have these days is of any interest to me though.

whiskeredbat · Feb 29, 2020

scapa
This fella says hello...

And you're right about the quality. These things are built like sea-going tanks and beautifully finished to boot. Looks like the company has recently changed hands but very happy with mine, super legible and comfy despite the weight.

Sir, your watch is a beauty and in such lovely condition. The few vintage I've encountered are bashed - they are tool watches after all. This is my favourite. The T-Graph Searambler. Compare this to the price of a Tudor Monte Carlo!

Photo taken off the internet.

kip595 · Mar 1, 2020

+1 More vote for Doxa here.

Personally I also think some of the 50s-60s era Hamiltons can be a steal as well, when you can find them in good shape. I've found condition is key, though.

jhross98 · Mar 5, 2020

Dan S
I love these pieces, but IMHO it's clear to me that case size is holding them back, and I'm not sure that will change any time soon. If they were 37-38mm, it would be a whole different story. The 35mm size just doesn't match the modern aesthetic.

The good news is that if you like 35mm chronographs, these are an amazing buy. 👍

Hmm.. Case size holding the m95s back? As in the identical cases that house Patek 1463s??

Funny I don't recall anyone saying those are held back by case size

https://www.phillips.com/detail/patek-philippe/CH080218/106

Dan S · Mar 5, 2020

jhross98
Hmm.. Case size holding the m95s back? As in the identical cases that house Patek 1463s??

Funny I don't recall anyone saying those are held back by case size

https://www.phillips.com/detail/patek-philippe/CH080218/106

Apples and Oranges. Movado is not Patek.

In general, if you compare 35mm to 37mm UG chronographs, for example, you will see exactly what those 2mm add in value. And I would guess it's often close to a factor of 2x. But hey, it's just my opinion, you don't have to agree.

jhross98 · Mar 5, 2020

Dan S
Apples and Oranges. Movado is not Patek.

In general, if you compare 35mm to 37mm UG chronographs, for example, you will see exactly what those 2mm add in value. And I would guess it's often close to a factor of 2x. But hey, it's just my opinion, you don't have to agree.

Actually I disagree completely. Back in the day Movado was right with say a Longines and there is no delta in values based on case size whatsoever. I think Movado can easily trade at parity with Longines 13zns and those are also smaller size

Similarly if you look at heuer Carreras don't trade at discounts based on case size if anything they've held out far better in the current downturn than the larger autavias

Most 40s and 50s watches are smaller.. Go flip through the fero book and there is almost no correlation of size to value even among brands that no longer exist

Dan S · Mar 5, 2020

jhross98
Actually I disagree completely. Back in the day Movado was right with say a Longines and there is no delta in values based on case size whatsoever. I think Movado can easily trade at parity with Longines 13zns and those are also smaller size

I may be misunderstanding your comment here, but if you are claiming that 35mm and 37mm 13zn chronographs have the same value (all else being equal), then I don't agree with that. The jumbo 13zn references carry a huge premium in my experience.

I think we are just miles apart in the way we look at the market, but it's interesting to hear your perspective, and perhaps you will ultimately be correct with the Movado chronographs, i.e. that their prices will skyrocket.

Anyway, I still don't think you can make the comparison with Patek, which holds a unique place in the market, and obviously you never addressed my UG comment, which also still stands. I'm not sure why you "disagreed" with me, but then turned the conversation into a totally different direction instead of addressing the actual points I made about Patek and UG.

jhross98 · Mar 5, 2020

Dan S
I may be misunderstanding your comment here, but if you are claiming that 35mm and 37mm 13zn chronographs have the same value (all else being equal), then I don't agree with that. The jumbo 13zn references carry a huge premium in my experience.

I think we are just miles apart in the way we look at the market, but it's interesting to hear your perspective, and perhaps you will ultimately be correct with the Movado chronographs, i.e. that their prices will skyrocket.

Anyway, I still don't think you can make the comparison with Patek, which holds a unique place in the market, and obviously you never addressed my UG comment, which also still stands. I'm not sure why you "disagreed" with me, but then turned the conversation into a totally different direction instead of addressing the actual points I made about Patek and UG.

movados ARE skyrocketing

yes i see the market completely differently. many of the all time great chronos that trade for the highest values have 35mm case sizes. patek may dominate the market and hold a unique place but there is ZERO correlation in patek values to case size. none.

i'm not saying some people don't prefer larger cases, and i do agree below some size (i'd argue 35mm) its just a completely different type of buyer and values do fall off.

every brand is different but i just don't see UG 35mm watches (from the 50s) as being the strength of the brand. the best watches they made are the later sports chronos which yes happen to be larger case sizes and yes trade for higher values (evil nina, nina, exotic compax, etc)

i do not see the correlation in longines to larger case sizes leading to higher values. here is a gilt example that is near the all time highest price paid for a longines that is 35mm. in fact i believe most of the all time highest prices paid in longines are gilt dials that are 35mm. just go to phillips web site and peruse them

https://www.phillips.com/detail/longines/CH080218/53?fromSearch=longines&searchPage=1

Dan S · Mar 5, 2020

jhross98
movados ARE skyrocketing

yes i see the market completely differently. many of the all time great chronos that trade for the highest values have 35mm case sizes. patek may dominate the market and hold a unique place but there is ZERO correlation in patek values to case size. none.

i'm not saying some people don't prefer larger cases, and i do agree below some size (i'd argue 35mm) its just a completely different type of buyer and values do fall off.

every brand is different but i just don't see UG 35mm watches (from the 50s) as being the strength of the brand. the best watches they made are the later sports chronos which yes happen to be larger case sizes and yes trade for higher values (evil nina, nina, exotic compax, etc)

i do not see the correlation in longines to larger case sizes leading to higher values. here is a gilt example that is near the all time highest price paid for a longines that is 35mm. in fact i believe most of the all time highest prices paid in longines are gilt dials that are 35mm. just go to phillips web site and peruse them

https://www.phillips.com/detail/longines/CH080218/53?fromSearch=longines&searchPage=1

Thanks for this perspective, certainly something to reflect on.

For the record, in mentioning UG, I was thinking about fair comparisons between 35mm and 37mm 1950s Uni-Compax or Compax references, which are quite similar aside from size and trade at very different prices. But you are correct that every brand is different, and with Longines it may not be so easy to find 35mm and 37mm 13zn chronographs that have very similar dials, making comparisons more difficult.

jhross98 · Mar 5, 2020

Dan S
Thanks for this perspective, certainly something to reflect on.

i'm not even sure i see it this way for rolex . ..

here's a 35mm example that i think trades at a huge premium to the larger daytonas that followed

https://www.phillips.com/detail/rolex/CH080016/82

i guess i think that watch values depend on many things . . case size above some minimum size threshold is relevant for certain buyers but not values per se and there is definitely no correlation that holds across brands or models

it comes down to rarity condition movement and overall look that seems to drive market prices

Dan S · Mar 5, 2020

jhross98
i'm not even sure i see it this way for rolex . ..

here's a 35mm example that i think trades at a huge premium to the larger daytonas that followed

Yes, that is a very rare and valuable watch.

Foo2rama · Mar 5, 2020

Define undervalued?

going to go up in price?

more bang for your buck?

2 totally different ways to look at your question.

Dan S · Mar 5, 2020

Foo2rama
Define undervalued?

going to go up in price?

more bang for your buck?

2 totally different ways to look at your question.

I agree, and I think it would be interesting to hear your thoughts regarding either or both definitions.

calalum · Mar 5, 2020

jhross98
movados ARE skyrocketing

yes i see the market completely differently. many of the all time great chronos that trade for the highest values have 35mm case sizes. patek may dominate the market and hold a unique place but there is ZERO correlation in patek values to case size. none.

Not sure you are correct. Lots of the vintage PP pieces at 35-36mm (e.g. a 2508) seem to be significantly higher priced than similar pieces at 31-32mm (I can't account for rarity but that is my experience).

calalum · Mar 5, 2020

Not sure you are correct. Lots of the vintage PP pieces at 35-36mm (e.g. a 2508) seem to be significantly higher priced than similar pieces at 31-32mm (I can't account for rarity but that is my experience).

jhross98 · Mar 5, 2020

calalum
Not sure you are correct. Lots of the vintage PP pieces at 35-36mm (e.g. a 2508) seem to be significantly higher priced than similar pieces at 31-32mm (I can't account for rarity but that is my experience).

I fully agree 31-32mm is a completely different market and values are far lower. I just bought a small gilt vetta from eric wind that would have been 5x+ if it had been 35-37mm

Foo2rama · Mar 5, 2020

Dan S
I agree, and I think it would be interesting to hear your thoughts regarding either or both definitions.

well I think a few fall into both categories.

great condition mid 60’s to 70’s non diver Seiko watches. Excellent examples can be found at decent prices if you hunt and do your research.

Zenith Primes are early 90’s el Premeros without the automatic. Classic styled 38mm hand wind chronos. You can get these under 3k easily in great condition. These are one hodinkee article away from blowing up. Virtually unknown as they are just pre internet watches.

Undervalued but not collectors pieces bang for your buck.

Sterile hand wound Laco and Stowa Fliegers. Esp 38mm and smaller.

Magrette watches from New Zealand. Awesome value and build quality for a surprisingly low price.

Rolex Thunderbirds fluctuate pretty bad. They are DJ’s with rotating bezels. Somewhat unknown and there are some stunning looking ones. You can still find stunning dial and color combinations at the price of the ugly ones if you hunt.

Undervalued from an investment standpoint.

High end Seiko pieces from any period. Seiko is dumping a lot of money into Grand Seiko right now. Boutiques in NYC and Rodeo Drive in LA. As the next generation comes up the Swiss made will matter less and less, and Seiko is actively marketing the Grand Seiko and the like.

145.022-69 220 bezel error Speedy Pro’s. There is no reason why these are basically the same price as a non error piece. They are rare and price should reflect it.

I think great condition Seiko divers from the 70’s are still on the way up, mid level condition ones are meh. You need to buy smart, which takes time and research.

Undervalued watches

bazamu

Dan S

bazamu

wagudc

whiskeredbat

kip595

jhross98

Dan S

jhross98

Dan S

jhross98

Dan S

jhross98

Dan S

Foo2rama

Dan S

calalum

calalum

jhross98

Foo2rama

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