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gbesq
·@padders how exact is the transition date? Can I assume that an Omega from 1954 with Tritium is fake/franken?
Tritium Lume
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padders
··Oooo subtitles!@padders how exact is the transition date? Can I assume that an Omega from 1954 with Tritium is fake/franken?
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gbesq
·100% but you need to be sure you are dealing with tritium as Radium and tritium can look pretty similar. The sure fire test is with a Geiger counter as Radium is a strong alpha emitter, tritium a weak beta emitter.
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gabethebabe
·@padders thanks for the link. I also found this article which dates the patent for tritium lume to 1953, and states the transition date for the swiss watch industry as 1959 at the earliest.
https://perezcope.com/2019/11/30/lu...rais-fictional-history-of-tritium-based-lume/
@gbesq the watch I am looking at right now may have been relumed, but the dial also looks incorrect stylistically for 1954. I can find no other examples of the particular reference with similar design features. This is the reason I thought the entire dial may be incorrect for the watch. I hesitate to post the picture here, as I do not want to bring negative attention on the dealer, especially if I end up being wrong.
https://perezcope.com/2019/11/30/lu...rais-fictional-history-of-tritium-based-lume/
@gbesq the watch I am looking at right now may have been relumed, but the dial also looks incorrect stylistically for 1954. I can find no other examples of the particular reference with similar design features. This is the reason I thought the entire dial may be incorrect for the watch. I hesitate to post the picture here, as I do not want to bring negative attention on the dealer, especially if I end up being wrong.
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gbesq
·@padders thanks for the link. I also found this article which dates the patent for tritium lume to 1953, and states the transition date for the swiss watch industry as 1959 at the earliest.
https://perezcope.com/2019/11/30/lu...rais-fictional-history-of-tritium-based-lume/
@gbesq the watch I am looking at right now may have been relumed, but the dial also looks incorrect stylistically for 1954. I can find no other examples of the particular reference with similar design features. This is the reason I thought the entire dial may be incorrect for the watch. I hesitate to post the picture here, as I do not want to bring negative attention on the dealer, especially if I end up being wrong.
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gabethebabe
·It's a Caliber 354 bumper automatic, Ref 2782 SC from 1954. The overall layout, with these simple faceted baton style hour markers, feels 1960s to me.... and I cannot find other examples of this reference with this style of dial:
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padders
··Oooo subtitles!Certainly is later than 1957 since it has the ER spelling. If it is described as a 1954 watch then it has been messed about. The hands too don't belong on that model. That dial style and text is too late to be seen on a bumper. Why are you sure it is tritium? If it were, it can't be later than ~1964 since it has no T marks. It looks like Radium to me. I wouldn't worry about your dealer's feelings if they are selling Franken watches.
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gabethebabe
·Certainly is later than 1957 since it has the ER spelling. If it is described as a 1954 watch then it has been messed about. The hands too don't belong on that model. That dial style and text is too late to be seen on a bumper. Why are you sure it is tritium? If it were, it can't be later than ~1964 since it has no T marks. It looks like Radium to me. I wouldn't worry about your dealer's feelings if they are selling Franken watches.
Thanks, I didn't realize about the ER spelling -- presumably it should read "Chronometre" in 1954? The hands, the sunburst brushing, the layout with the wide minute track, and the straight faceted baton hour markers... just looks 1960s.... Also good point about the T. If it is tritium, we have a small range of possible dates for the true reference that this dial belongs to....I am tempted to go play detective here!
The paint was tested with exposure to UV light. My understanding is that this tests for the integrity of the phosphorescent material (not radioactivity levels directly), which should be destroyed by now if there is Radium present. So the resulting glow convinced the dealer that the paint must contain Tritium.
I wonder if the above test is really definitive -- could some cases with Radium paint have undergone less destruction of the phosphorescence, for instance late paints with less Radium, or watches with small amounts of paint?
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Dan S
·@padders thanks for the link. I also found this article which dates the patent for tritium lume to 1953, and states the transition date for the swiss watch industry as 1959 at the earliest.
Probably a more important patent from a practical perspective was filed in 1957, "Self Luminous Paints" (3,033,797), which describes the use of a tritiated polymer binder for luminous paint.
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gabethebabe
·That patent is interesting, and demonstrates that Panerai did not have an earlier patent, but it does not really describe a practical way of making or applying robust tritium lume. I'm not sure that method was ever widely used on watch dials, although I would certainly be interested to know of examples of dials with this sort of lume.
Probably a more important patent from a practical perspective was filed in 1957, "Self Luminous Paints" (3,033,797), which describes the use of a tritiated polymer binder for luminous paint.
Great, thanks! This is all coming together in a coherent picture: in the 1950's, production of Tritium and the technology of Tritium-based paints was very much under development. The article also points out that the cost of Tritium would have been far to high in the early 50's for use in watches. By the very late 50's, the industry was ready to make the switch.
I wonder if anyone has ever determined the absolute first watch to be produced with Tritium paint. Collectors love "the first one", so I would assume someone knows this...
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Dan S
·By the very late 50's, the industry was ready to make the switch.
From what I've seen anecdotally, in Swiss watches, the transition more typically happened in 1962-ish at large scale (give or take), although I wouldn't be surprised to find some 1961 examples with tritium. It was not necessarily a sharp transition, and some brands definitely continued to use Radium for a few more years.
IIRC, radioactivity was not permitted at all on Japanese watch dials in this era, even tritium.
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padders
··Oooo subtitles!Thanks, I didn't realize about the ER spelling -- presumably it should read "Chronometre" in 1954? The hands, the sunburst brushing, the layout with the wide minute track, and the straight faceted baton hour markers... just looks 1960s.... Also good point about the T. If it is tritium, we have a small range of possible dates for the true reference that this dial belongs to....I am tempted to go play detective here!
The paint was tested with exposure to UV light. My understanding is that this tests for the integrity of the phosphorescent material (not radioactivity levels directly), which should be destroyed by now if there is Radium present. So the resulting glow convinced the dealer that the paint must contain Tritium.
I wonder if the above test is really definitive -- could some cases with Radium paint have undergone less destruction of the phosphorescence, for instance late paints with less Radium, or watches with small amounts of paint?
Again your dealer is showing worrying ignorance. Radium lume does indeed degrade the way you say but often can be persuaded to glow briefly using intense UV. I’ve seen it myself many times and it’s not a definitive test for the difference as you suspect. I too think the dial is from 1960-1963 based on the factors you state. Or a very good redial. If the movement is a bumper it’s a red flag as those were phased out around ‘55.
I have a strong uv torch. I might test some known Radium dials later and report back with pics.
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gabethebabe
·I'd be interested to hear otherwise, but I don't know of a major manufacturer delivering mass produced watches with tritium lume in the 50s. For example, I would be very skeptical of a 1959 Omega with tritium lume.
From what I've seen anecdotally, in Swiss watches, the transition more typically happened in 1962-ish at large scale (give or take), although I wouldn't be surprised to find some 1961 examples with tritium. It was not necessarily a sharp transition, and some brands definitely continued to use Radium for a few more years.
IIRC, radioactivity was not permitted at all on Japanese watch dials in this era, even tritium.
Hi, I do not have any information that contradicts what you are saying. I do not know of any confirmed examples of Tritium watches from the 1950s. I was trying to imagine a plausible year when it may have been *technically* possible to produce one at mass scale.
Someone out there surely knows the first Tritium watch...😀
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gabethebabe
·Again your dealer is showing worrying ignorance. Radium lume does indeed degrade the way you say but often can be persuaded to glow briefly using intense UV. I’ve seen it myself many times and it’s not a definitive test for the difference as you suspect. I too think the dial is from 1960-1963 based on the factors you state. Or a very good redial. If the movement is a bumper it’s a red flag as those were phased out around ‘55.
I have a strong uv torch. I might test some known Radium dials later and report back with pics.
Yes, the movement is a bumper, has the right serial number for 1954, and the right movement caliber for the case reference.
It is the dial that does not belong...
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Davidt
·Agree with @padders that a UV test is certainly not conclusive for radium, as not all mixtures are strong enough to completely degrade the paint. I’d assume this is most prevalent towards the late 50’s/early 60’s when manufacturers tried to use less radium due to safety concerns.
Any dealer who is using UV as a test for radium in lieu of simply buying a Geiger counter is cheaping out or ignorant. Either way I’d think twice about trusting their knowledge and descriptions.
Any dealer who is using UV as a test for radium in lieu of simply buying a Geiger counter is cheaping out or ignorant. Either way I’d think twice about trusting their knowledge and descriptions.
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Omegafanman
·It’s odd: I have two 105.012, and one 145.012. All sourced 20+ years ago, all from different places. And none of them retain their original lume. The same goes for pictures I have searched for regarding the same watches. Yet, Speedmaster references both before and after seem to more often retain their lume. Of course, I could have just bumped into a bunch of outliers, so this is just my observation, not science.
My 1969 145.012 just lost a bit of lume from the hour hand. The hands seem to be the issue / the markers seem ok and I like how they have aged. I had the loose lume cleaned out and the remaining stabilised (did not look to have anything replaced)
.
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Fallout Boy
·Any dealer who is using UV as a test for radium in lieu of simply buying a Geiger counter is cheaping out or ignorant. Either way I’d think twice about trusting their knowledge and descriptions.
left: Tritium T<25 from 1996 = nearly zero glow ----- right: Radium from ?? 1948 = bright glow under UV
A check with a Geiger is the ultimate test - that is correct!
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Davidt
·Yes and No: UV test with small UV-lamp
left: Tritium T<25 from 1996 = nearly zero glow ----- right: Radium from ?? 1948 = bright glow under UV
A check with a Geiger is the ultimate test - that is correct!
You’re not comparing like with like there.
Rolex tritium based lume from certain periods is known to be ‘dead’ after 30 years. Omega tritium based lume almost always glows well under UV.
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Fallout Boy
·You’re not comparing like with like there.
Rolex tritium based lume from certain periods is known to be ‘dead’ after 30 years. Omega tritium based lume almost always glows well under UV.
white-blance adapted:
