Tokyo Olympics...

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Sweden beat the US women’s soccer team 3-nil

the important thing was the Swedish team! Holy smokes, soccer team or supermodels!
1626864199_sports-2021-07-21t160856.591.png
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I know there is even more controversy around these Games than most others, but seeing some photos today of the archery venue during practice has ramped up the excitement for me now...

Controversy or no, I love the Olympics and I'm super excited to watch. I love the obscure sports that get this moment in the sun.

But these archers will compete for individual medals, and also as a team in the first ever mixed team event at the Olympics.

Is this potentially a sport where women and men could actually compete on an equal footing, perhaps with a standardized bow? There are so few sports where this is done, equestrian comes to mind.
 
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Is this potentially a sport where women and men could actually compete on an equal footing, perhaps with a standardized bow? There are so few sports where this is done, equestrian comes to mind.

I suppose they could, but it would put one or the other at a disadvantage compared to what they are capable of.

The key issue is the draw weight. The draw weight on the men's bows is typically 5 to 10 pounds more than the women shoot. The upper range of the women may overlap the lower range of the men, but just barely. Higher draw weight has advantages in that the arrows can travel at a lower trajectory, getting to the target faster - so less chance to be affected by wind or rain (we don't stop shooting in the rain - the only thing we really stop for is lightning).

The ranking round that will be shot Friday is called a 720 round - 72 arrows at 70 meters, with max score of each arrow being 10 points.

Current world record for men is 702 out of 720, and for women 692.
 
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I suppose they could, but it would put one or the other at a disadvantage compared to what they are capable of.

The key issue is the draw weight. The draw weight on the men's bows is typically 5 to 10 pounds more than the women shoot. The upper range of the women may overlap the lower range of the men, but just barely. Higher draw weight has advantages in that the arrows can travel at a lower trajectory, getting to the target faster - so less chance to be affected by wind or rain (we don't stop shooting in the rain - the only thing we really stop for is lightning).

The ranking round that will be shot Friday is called a 720 round - 72 arrows at 70 meters, with max score of each arrow being 10 points.

Current world record for men is 702 out of 720, and for women 692.
That would be impressive with a rifle, let alone a bow.
 
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I suppose they could, but it would put one or the other at a disadvantage compared to what they are capable of.

To this point, asking for a 'standardized bow' is like saying all cyclists should race on the exact same make/model bike, or that all equestrian competitors should ride the exact same horse.
 
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I had a go at archery when I was a young kid, but it didn't catch on with me. I liked the sport, but the cost of equipment was daunting. I guess that most of the people in that sports club (had an olympian as a member and a lot of competitors who were active at national level) was focussed on compound bow shooting and the prices were - to my family and myself - astronomical. A childhood friend went on to win second place at the Danish championship and stated that his entire rig cost the same as the winner's targetting equipment.
 
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Nicely put. Got me wondering if archers (and Archer will know this!) use movement disciplines like Alexander Technique quite widely. I would have thought it hugely beneficial not only physically but mentally in terms of the feedback it seems to give, and especially relevant to how Archer described possible inhibition of fine motor control.
Not sure fingers crossed is a good technique btw 😀

I had to look up what the Alexander Technique was, so I guess that's the answer there!

So back when I was shooting, my personal coach was also the coach of our Olympic teams. She was a very accomplished archer in her own right, and coach all Canadian Archery team at the Olympics from 1996 through to 2016.

But in addition to her there were other resources available depending on your level and what funding you might qualify for, and that included a sports psychologist I worked with for a number of years. I went to the National Training Center a number of times in Montreal where there was another coach we worked with, and I was a guest archer at the US Olympic Training Center for a while, getting feedback from the coaches and spots psychologist there. My coach would bring in sports physiologists to do studies on things like breathing and pulse studies while shooting. She also brought in a physiotherapist that would help with the body mechanics side of things.

So body awareness is a big things in pretty much any sport, and archery is no exception.

There was occasional access to high speed video back then (that is much more common now), and we used regular video feedback regularly in our training sessions. Of course I made notes very diligently after each daily training session (sometimes twice a day), and back then there was arrow plotting software you could buy for your Palm Pilot (dating myself with that) where you could plot the arrows and look at things like centering, group size, trends, etc. One thing I did a lot of was visualization, and of all the tools available to me, this was one of the most effective.

Of course technology has moved on, and there are sensors that can now be attached to the bow that help analyze things in your shot. Bow arm movements, shot timing, etc. as you can see here:

Archery Training Tool for Marksmanship | Mantis X8 (mantisarchery.com)

Of course electronic devices are not allowed in competition, so these things are for training sessions only. The hope is to build the muscle memory so that it's automatic when it comes time to perform, and all you have to do is keep your head from getting in the way of what you already know how to do. It's easier said than done.
 
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To this point, asking for a 'standardized bow' is like saying all cyclists should race on the exact same make/model bike, or that all equestrian competitors should ride the exact same horse.
I'm not sure the horse could carry everyone at once.

😁
 
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And to avoid cruelty to horses polo will now be on Ordinaries [*] too,



[^] That's the proper name for "penny farthings.
 
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I had a go at archery when I was a young kid, but it didn't catch on with me. I liked the sport, but the cost of equipment was daunting. I guess that most of the people in that sports club (had an olympian as a member and a lot of competitors who were active at national level) was focussed on compound bow shooting and the prices were - to my family and myself - astronomical. A childhood friend went on to win second place at the Danish championship and stated that his entire rig cost the same as the winner's targetting equipment.
So instead you went into watch collecting which the cost of watches isn’t all that daunting?
 
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So instead you went into watch collecting which the cost of watches isn’t all that daunting?

Eighteen years later, yes 😀

I grew up not missing anything, but even so $200 for the cheapest bow without any stabilisers, arrows or anything was a pipe dream. It was ridiculously expensive and you'd have to invest a fair bit of money before you'd figure out if you were any good at it.

I looked at an archery equipment catalogue after years ago and found that the prices hadn't changed much from the mid-nineties, rather it had become cheaper. I am sure the high-end stuff has become better and much more expensive...
 
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Yes, sophisticated equipment is certainly a problem in competition. So in addition to the changes you are suggesting for archery, I think that the IOC should mandate that all running events must be run in bare feet in order to ensure no technical advantages of these new things called “shoes” makes the competition unfair.

Also this is new bicycle that will be used for all cycling events, the Pennyfarthing:



All tennis players will be using these wooden racquets with gut strings:



All golf events will use wooden shafted clubs:



All shooting events will use the blunderbuss:



This is truly a game changer idea mate!

😉
I would be so down if olympics were played with these. Maybe bare knuckle boxing no head gear, when are these changes kicking in.
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I would be so down if olympics were played with these. Maybe bare knuckle boxing be head gear, when are these changes kicking in.

You guys could always start you own "Old timey" Olympics if you want to see this stuff come to fruition, because I doubt the IOC is going to take these suggestions up...
 
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I am sure the high-end stuff has become better and much more expensive...

It's actually not too bad, as far as hobbies and sports go. The gear that the top Oly competitors will shoot on are in the ~$4K-$5K range. And you can get a pretty solid setup for around $1K to these days. Once you get a decent riser and a nice set of limbs, you can shoot for years with very little additional cost. Not the cheapest sport, but not the worst.

Where I live, there are also several free outdoor ranges at local parks, so I don't even have to pay to go practice. But, it does mean I have to put up with all the archery weirdos. For every 10 bowhunters or Oly archers, there will always be at least one dangerously unprepared person who just bought a crossbow from a bass pro shop... And every now and then, there will be agroup of Rennaissance Fair cosplayers who can't hit the target because they drank too much mead.
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It's actually not too bad, as far as hobbies and sports go. The gear that the top Oly competitors will shoot on are in the ~$4K-$5K range. And you can get a pretty solid setup for around $1K to these days. Once you get a decent riser and a nice set of limbs, you can shoot for years with very little additional cost. Not the cheapest sport, but not the worst.

Where I live, there are also several free outdoor ranges at local parks, so I don't even have to pay to go practice. But, it does mean I have to put up with all the archery weirdos. For every 10 bowhunters or Oly archers, there will always be at least one dangerously unprepared person who just bought a crossbow from a bass pro shop... And every now and then, there will be agroup of Rennaissance Fair cosplayers who can't hit the target because they drank too much mead.
Ya I enjoy it. I got a set up in my back yard I can put up hey and a target and I’m good. Absolutely no danger to anyone as my back yard turns into a half acre of heavy forest. I mean I give a look and a shout first anyway. Plus I shoot lefty I can use it as physical therapy but there is a certain movement in archery that does bother my mangled shoulder so it’s like twice a month thing. Strictly amateur here though, probably sub amateur but when ever a buddy stops by and we just do target shooting both they and myself always really like it. Probably as for most people it’s not something they get to do often. Everybody has been cool though, I don’t mind if they lose or break an arrow just no shooting at squirrels or birds or any other living thing, never had anyone break that rule. TBH I’m probably breaking some law doing this but it’s literally a handful of times a year, no problems thus far.
 
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Just wanted to say, I didn't intend this thread to be only about archery, so if people want to talk about other events please go ahead.

But since some have expressed an interest in watching some archery, I thought I would explain how the scoring and event works.

Way back when I started shooting in the 70's, the method of determining the winner was pretty simple - everyone shoots some arrows in a pre-determined format (called a FITA round, actually 2 of them over 4 days), and at the end of the event, whoever had the most points wins. Each arrow is worth 10 points, and 288 arrows are shot over the event, so the scoring was out of 2880 points. This was the format when archery was brought back into the Olympics in 1972.

But the IOC was grumbling to various sports (including archery) that they needed to be more "TV friendly" and watching that style of archery tournament is about as exciting as watching grass grow. Often winners were known long before the event was over. So after some other experiments that used essentially the same format but cut the numbers of archers remaining in the field as the event went along (called the Grand FITA, which was last shot in 1992 going from memory), by 1996 they had revamped the format completely.

Now you shot a ranking round, which will start in about 11.5 hours in Japan, and this is ranks the archers from top to bottom. 64 men and 64 women (yes not many, and typically in a year the Olympics is one of the smallest archery events there is). That total is out of 720, so now only 72 arrows shot for ranking purposes.

Then the next stage is the single elimination format. Archer ranked 1 shoots against archer ranked 64, 2 against 63, and so on. Single elimination, so one loss and your tournament is over. The only time you can lose and still advance is in the semi-finals, where you would then shoot for bronze. This is the overall format that is used to this day for the individual competition.

Back in 1996, which was the first Olympics of this new format, the way you won a head to head match was to shoot a number of arrows (in the early rounds of the event it was 18 arrows, and in the later stages it was 12 arrows) and whoever had the most points at the end of those arrows won the match. I shot many tournaments using this format, and in some I won against much stronger archers, and some I lost against much weaker archers, and for the most part the majority of archers were not fans of this format.

The reason was simple - it became apparent over time that this format introduced a factor of randomness into the event that meant that the best archers wouldn't advance on a regular basis. You still had to be good to win, but in an 18 or 12 arrow match, one mistake even a small one, meant that you would crash out of the event. It was a big adjustment, because in the old format that was the norm back in 1972, over the 288 scoring arrows shot, you could make a mistake or two and still recover, but when you live and die by a fraction of that number of arrows, the stakes on every single shot are exponentially higher. There were instances where the 64th ranked person beat the 1st ranked person, either because one person made a small error, or the other one got lucky for 18 arrows, and then crashed out the next round. Some archers started to refer to it as a lottery rather than a competition - personally I think that goes too far, but I understand the concerns certainly, and it brought up great debates about what determines the best archer, because an archer shooting very well for a very long period of time, and an archer shooting near perfectly for a short period of time, are not always the same person.

For example, my friend Shawn (who is the coach in Tokyo) was a very strong match shooter, even though he was not always near the top in the ranking rounds. So if he came up against a much better archer in a match, his ranking didn't really reflect how good he was at shooting matches.

One can argue if that format is fair or not, but eventually the format was changed to what we have now. Still the same single elimination format overall, but how each match is decided is quite different. Matches are decided by set points, rather than by arrow points. Each archer shoots a set of arrows, and at the end of that set, set points are awarded by who has the higher score. 2 set points are up for grabs in each set, so if you win outright, you get 2 set points and the loser gets 0. If you tie in a set, you each get 1 set points. You have to win 6 set points to win a match and move on, and in the event of a tie on set points at 5 each, there is a one arrow shoot off, which is very exciting to watch.

Here's an example - 2019 world championships gold medal match for the women's event, and it has a bit of everything, including a one arrow shoot off for gold:


So this format within each match allows you to make a mistake (at least early on in the match), and not lose the match, and have a chance to recover.

I've never shot this format personally, but talking to many archer who have, everyone feels this is a very good system that allows the better archers to rise to the top.

For those who decide to watch, I hope you find it enjoyable.
 
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Just wanted to say, I didn't intend this thread to be only about archery, so if people want to talk about other events please go ahead.

But since some have expressed an interest in watching some archery, I thought I would explain how the scoring and event works.

Way back when I started shooting in the 70's, the method of determining the winner was pretty simple - everyone shoots some arrows in a pre-determined format (called a FITA round, actually 2 of them over 4 days), and at the end of the event, whoever had the most points wins. Each arrow is worth 10 points, and 288 arrows are shot over the event, so the scoring was out of 2880 points. This was the format when archery was brought back into the Olympics in 1972.

But the IOC was grumbling to various sports (including archery) that they needed to be more "TV friendly" and watching that style of archery tournament is about as exciting as watching grass grow. Often winners were known long before the event was over. So after some other experiments that used essentially the same format but cut the numbers of archers remaining in the field as the event went along (called the Grand FITA, which was last shot in 1992 going from memory), by 1996 they had revamped the format completely.

Now you shot a ranking round, which will start in about 11.5 hours in Japan, and this is ranks the archers from top to bottom. 64 men and 64 women (yes not many, and typically in a year the Olympics is one of the smallest archery events there is). That total is out of 720, so now only 72 arrows shot for ranking purposes.

Then the next stage is the single elimination format. Archer ranked 1 shoots against archer ranked 64, 2 against 63, and so on. Single elimination, so one loss and your tournament is over. The only time you can lose and still advance is in the semi-finals, where you would then shoot for bronze. This is the overall format that is used to this day for the individual competition.

Back in 1996, which was the first Olympics of this new format, the way you won a head to head match was to shoot a number of arrows (in the early rounds of the event it was 18 arrows, and in the later stages it was 12 arrows) and whoever had the most points at the end of those arrows won the match. I shot many tournaments using this format, and in some I won against much stronger archers, and some I lost against much weaker archers, and for the most part the majority of archers were not fans of this format.

The reason was simple - it became apparent over time that this format introduced a factor of randomness into the event that meant that the best archers wouldn't advance on a regular basis. You still had to be good to win, but in an 18 or 12 arrow match, one mistake even a small one, meant that you would crash out of the event. It was a big adjustment, because in the old format that was the norm back in 1972, over the 288 scoring arrows shot, you could make a mistake or two and still recover, but when you live and die by a fraction of that number of arrows, the stakes on every single shot are exponentially higher. There were instances where the 64th ranked person beat the 1st ranked person, either because one person made a small error, or the other one got lucky for 18 arrows, and then crashed out the next round. Some archers started to refer to it as a lottery rather than a competition - personally I think that goes too far, but I understand the concerns certainly, and it brought up great debates about what determines the best archer, because an archer shooting very well for a very long period of time, and an archer shooting near perfectly for a short period of time, are not always the same person.

For example, my friend Shawn (who is the coach in Tokyo) was a very strong match shooter, even though he was not always near the top in the ranking rounds. So if he came up against a much better archer in a match, his ranking didn't really reflect how good he was at shooting matches.

One can argue if that format is fair or not, but eventually the format was changed to what we have now. Still the same single elimination format overall, but how each match is decided is quite different. Matches are decided by set points, rather than by arrow points. Each archer shoots a set of arrows, and at the end of that set, set points are awarded by who has the higher score. 2 set points are up for grabs in each set, so if you win outright, you get 2 set points and the loser gets 0. If you tie in a set, you each get 1 set points. You have to win 6 set points to win a match and move on, and in the event of a tie on set points at 5 each, there is a one arrow shoot off, which is very exciting to watch.

Here's an example - 2019 world championships gold medal match for the women's event, and it has a bit of everything, including a one arrow shoot off for gold:


So this format within each match allows you to make a mistake (at least early on in the match), and not lose the match, and have a chance to recover.

I've never shot this format personally, but talking to many archer who have, everyone feels this is a very good system that allows the better archers to rise to the top.

For those who decide to watch, I hope you find it enjoyable.


I have very limited knowledge or experience of archery beyond stumbling across it on TV at previous Olympic Games, watching for 5 or 10 minutes then flicking on to something else. This thread has been absolutely fascinating (as was the above video), so thanks very much for sharing all of your knowledge @Archer! I have since discovered Northern Ireland have an archer (Patrick Huston) competing for Team GB, so will be tuning in on Friday morning!
 
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Results are in...ranking rounds are complete. Let's look at the top female first - no surprise here it's a Korean, followed by a Korean in 2nd, and another in 3rd...



New Olympic record in the ranking round, so not too shabby I guess. 😉

Our Canadian did okay - little shaky in the second half, so she is in the bottom half of the draw and will face a stronger archer in her first individual match, At one point just as the first half ended, she was in 33rd so a much better position, but that 48 was killer:



On the men's side, again no surprises if we look at the top - a Korean, followed by Brady Ellison from the US, and two more Koreans after that:



Note the couple of 60's shot there. The hardest Olympic archery team to make is the Korean team - they have so many good archers there.

Crispin did well - all scores on the men's side were a bit low so this is 20 points off his best score in this round, but a good seeding at 16th, and a good strong second half:



So here's the heartbreak for our Canadian pair. Since there are not an even number of mixed teams (29), they cut to the top 16 teams to move on and compete for medals. We landed in a rather unfortunate spot, at 17th:



I'm sure they are very disappointed with this - for the sake of 2 points. 🙁🤬🤬🤬

Here is the bracket for tomorrow - at least I won't have to get up in the middle of the night now to watch, but I wish I was.



Team rounds can be very unpredictable - the pressure competing with team mates is different than when competing for just yourself.

Just watching the opening ceremonies and didn't see any of our archers there, but they have limited the people coming in to 40 per team I think, so out of our 371 athletes it's not surprising they are not there. The decision to attend the opening ceremonies is sometimes a tough one if your event is the next day. Having known quite a few people who have been in these, they are a real drain on the body - waiting around for hours before you enter the stadium, hours inside, and then many more hours getting out and onto buses back to the village. It can ruin a performance you might need to make the next day, which is not something I ever really thought about until I talked to those who have done it. For someone who makes a first Olympic team, not knowing if you will ever make another, it would be a tough decision to not go, considering it would be such a highlight of your Olympics.

Cheers, Al
 
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Go Canada! It will be cool to see your Speedmaster in action, with Shawn sending arrows at your Avatar! On TCM yesterday there was a film about the 1956 winter Olympics. I captured a shot of the hockey score board. Omega Logo included!
OMG!!!!!! That hockey equipment looks a little dated!! Never saw a goalie wear a stocking cap either!!! We had a family friend named Doug Volmar who was born in Cleveland Hts, Ohio. He was an all american from Michigan State and played in the 1968 Olympics on Grenoble. Went on to play in the NHL, WHA, and several minor leagues. Complete playboy. Was a golf and tennis pro in the summers, and showed up at the Red Wings training camp driving a Jaguar E Type. Don't think he was too well received by the hockey establishment at the time.