To co-axial or not to co-axial or is it a case of back to the future?

Archer · Aug 28, 2015

Horlogerie
Granted the teeth of the lever escape wheel are larger, but I don't know why tooth thickness would influence wear, I would expect to see a similar wear pattern on the lever escape wheel, especially on movements that are 100+ years old.

It's not just about the thickness, but how the geometry of the tooth and the pallet stone interact - I'm not sure if you have ever seen a co-axial watch directly and looked at this, but the wear pattern makes absolute sense if you have. There's no mystery here...

Horlogerie
I am still curious as to what wear pattern Daniels watches have shown and what Roger Smith has experienced with his new coaxial design.

You appear to have connections through the BHI, so contact Smith and ask him. Of course please report your findings here thanks.

Cheers, Al

Archer · Aug 28, 2015

Here this might help - took a video to show you...

I think with the fine tip of the lower co-axial wheel tooth going over the sharp angle of the pallet stone, it's pretty clear how wear like this happens:

Unlike a Swiss lever, where the angles between the heel of the escape wheel tooth and the leading corner of the pallet stone work together to minimize the possibility for wear, here it's the opposite in some ways. That sharp corner of the co-axial pallet fork is quite sharp.

Cheers, Al

4236 · Aug 28, 2015

Sorry to say this, because i have been a fan of co-axials since 2003 when i bought an Aqua Terra cal.2500B, but these pictures made me thinking. I have just traded my almost new Seamaster 300 Master to the very nice Panerai pam 104.

Geo! · Aug 28, 2015

Thanks for posting the action of the pallet stone on the escapement Al. There is considerable sliding action taking place and the fact that there is not even full width contact across the tooth won't help either.

My opinion is that this was an attempt to find a solution to a problem that really wasn't there, and has unfortunately resulted in producing a ..................... problem!

Df13 · Aug 28, 2015

4 4236
Sorry to say this, because i have been a fan of co-axials since 2003 when i bought an Aqua Terra cal.2500B, but these pictures made me thinking. I have just traded my almost new Seamaster 300 Master to the very nice Panerai pam 104.

Enjoy your new watch, but I wouldn't worry much about the 2500B. Your new PAM 104 has a modified Valjoux 7750, which has other issues, like the famous "wobble." Rolex, for that matter, doesn't even use bearings on their rotors (until the brand new movement that was just announced,) so that's a pretty common wear point.

All movements have their positives and negatives. For me, I just think its cool that Omega tried a new escapement, whether it's technically better or not. If a service is in order, that's what we have Archer for. 😀

ScubaPro · Aug 28, 2015

Archer
It's not just about the thickness, but how the geometry of the tooth and the pallet stone interact - I'm not sure if you have ever seen a co-axial watch directly and looked at this, but the wear pattern makes absolute sense if you have. There's no mystery here...

You appear to have connections through the BHI, so contact Smith and ask him. Of course please report your findings here thanks.

Cheers, Al

I just joined this forum not because I'm an Omega fan (I'm not, but I have so problems with the fans of these timepieces) but I've been enjoying the discussions and Al is one of the best posters on any watch forum in my opinion. I've learned much, and I am very grateful about your co-axial postings as I've had so many questions about the servicing of these unconventional movements. Oh, and I have to say I live in the states but my wife is originally from Perth. I. too, have become convinced that everything in Australia, including creatures swimming the pristine oceans, are all trying to kill you. Except for the people, who are some of the finest. Oh, and Did You Know the funnel web spider's venom is only deadly to primates? What's up with that?

Cheers!

Archer · Aug 29, 2015

4 4236
Sorry to say this, because i have been a fan of co-axials since 2003 when i bought an Aqua Terra cal.2500B, but these pictures made me thinking. I have just traded my almost new Seamaster 300 Master to the very nice Panerai pam 104.

Hello - well I hope you didn't do it because of what I have posted, as that was not my intent. I can show you Panerai watches that are all messed up inside as well, so no watch is immune to problems. That said, congrats on the 104, and mine says hello!

Here wearing it while doing a little dynamic poising on a watch...

Cheers, Al

Archer · Aug 29, 2015

Df13
Enjoy your new watch, but I wouldn't worry much about the 2500B. Your new PAM 104 has a modified Valjoux 7750, which has other issues, like the famous "wobble." Rolex, for that matter, doesn't even use bearings on their rotors (until the brand new movement that was just announced,) so that's a pretty common wear point.

All movements have their positives and negatives. For me, I just think its cool that Omega tried a new escapement, whether it's technically better or not. If a service is in order, that's what we have Archer for. 😀

I would not call the 7750 wobble an "issue" as it is not a sign of a poor design or a movement in bad shape. Some people dislike it, but that has nothing to do with the movement itself really, just people's perception. I've said it many times before, but the 7750 is consistently one of the best movements I service for durability and timekeeping. It's easy to service, and is a true workhorse movement IMO - I look forward to any day at the bench when I have one to service, because I know that 99% of the time, it will not give me any troubles.

And yes, Rolex finally moved into the 1960's when they put a bearing in one of their watches...they do progress, but very slowly...

Most certainly a watch movement (like any designed thing) is a series of compromises.

Cheers, Al

4236 · Aug 29, 2015

Archer
I would not call the 7750 wobble an "issue" as it is not a sign of a poor design or a movement in bad shape. Some people dislike it, but that has nothing to do with the movement itself really, just people's perception. I've said it many times before, but the 7750 is consistently one of the best movements I service for durability and timekeeping. It's easy to service, and is a true workhorse movement IMO - I look forward to any day at the bench when I have one to service, because I know that 99% of the time, it will not give me any troubles.

And yes, Rolex finally moved into the 1960's when they put a bearing in one of their watches...they do progress, but very slowly...

Most certainly a watch movement (like any designed thing) is a series of compromises.

Cheers, Al

Archer · Aug 29, 2015

ScubaPro
I just joined this forum not because I'm an Omega fan (I'm not, but I have so problems with the fans of these timepieces) but I've been enjoying the discussions and Al is one of the best posters on any watch forum in my opinion. I've learned much, and I am very grateful about your co-axial postings as I've had so many questions about the servicing of these unconventional movements. Oh, and I have to say I live in the states but my wife is originally from Perth. I. too, have become convinced that everything in Australia, including creatures swimming the pristine oceans, are all trying to kill you. Except for the people, who are some of the finest. Oh, and Did You Know the funnel web spider's venom is only deadly to primates? What's up with that?

Cheers!

Welcome! Yes everything in Australia IS trying to kill you it seems. Everyone thinks of sharks when they think of the ocean, but the box jellyfish and blue ringed octopus are also pretty deadly (and those octopi are small little buggers!).

Just a few of the reasons why I stay out of the water...oh and also because I swim like a rock...

4236 · Aug 29, 2015

Here is mine, could`t resist to post a picture, even this is a Omega forum. P-series 2013 pam 104 😀

ScubaPro · Aug 30, 2015

Archer
Welcome! Yes everything in Australia IS trying to kill you it seems. Everyone thinks of sharks when they think of the ocean, but the box jellyfish and blue ringed octopus are also pretty deadly (and those octopi are small little buggers!).

Just a few of the reasons why I stay out of the water...oh and also because I swim like a rock...

If you can kick, you can dive and snorkel. Hope you give it a try one day. One another note, I've always wondered about the servicing of a dual-barrel movement, for while the increased reserve would always be a good thing, I have wondered if it increases servicing time/expense as you have twice as many parts as a single barrel design. Or, is it really no big deal? I've also wondered how such a movement uses power from two different "sources," and switches from one to the other.

Horlogerie · Aug 30, 2015

Archer
You appear to have connections through the BHI, so contact Smith and ask him. Of course please report your findings here thanks.

Cheers, Al

Taken care of, not sure who will answer my query, but we'll see...stay tuned!

blubarb · Aug 31, 2015

Archer
Welcome! Yes everything in Australia IS trying to kill you it seems. Everyone thinks of sharks when they think of the ocean, but the box jellyfish and blue ringed octopus are also pretty deadly (and those octopi are small little buggers!).

Just a few of the reasons why I stay out of the water...oh and also because I swim like a rock...

Hahaha..true,

ScubaPro
I just joined this forum not because I'm an Omega fan (I'm not, but I have so problems with the fans of these timepieces) but I've been enjoying the discussions and Al is one of the best posters on any watch forum in my opinion. I've learned much, and I am very grateful about your co-axial postings as I've had so many questions about the servicing of these unconventional movements. Oh, and I have to say I live in the states but my wife is originally from Perth. I. too, have become convinced that everything in Australia, including creatures swimming the pristine oceans, are all trying to kill you. Except for the people, who are some of the finest. Oh, and Did You Know the funnel web spider's venom is only deadly to primates? What's up with that?

Cheers!

I don't know how many red-backs I had to squash in the outdoor dunny at night before using it. Perth was/is a dangerous place then. Even my pet Kangaroo took to me once and beat the shite out of me.

Archer · Aug 31, 2015

ScubaPro
If you can kick, you can dive and snorkel. Hope you give it a try one day. One another note, I've always wondered about the servicing of a dual-barrel movement, for while the increased reserve would always be a good thing, I have wondered if it increases servicing time/expense as you have twice as many parts as a single barrel design. Or, is it really no big deal? I've also wondered how such a movement uses power from two different "sources," and switches from one to the other.

Well yes there is added expense in servicing a movement with 2 barrels - I always replace the mainspring in any watch I'm servicing (unless a new one absolutely cannot be found) so now you need 2 instead of just 1. In terms of labour, well it's not a huge addition, so not something I really increase my prices for.

With the 2 barrel designs, they can be done in different ways, but most have the barrels in series, so really no "switching" involved in terms of something inside switch the power from one barrel to another. I'm pretty sure Omega has put out some marketing material with diagrams showing how the 2 barrels work in their watches, so you should do some searching to find that.

Cheers, Al

Df13 · Aug 31, 2015

Archer
I would not call the 7750 wobble an "issue" as it is not a sign of a poor design or a movement in bad shape. Some people dislike it, but that has nothing to do with the movement itself really, just people's perception. I've said it many times before, but the 7750 is consistently one of the best movements I service for durability and timekeeping. It's easy to service, and is a true workhorse movement IMO - I look forward to any day at the bench when I have one to service, because I know that 99% of the time, it will not give me any troubles.

And yes, Rolex finally moved into the 1960's when they put a bearing in one of their watches...they do progress, but very slowly...

Most certainly a watch movement (like any designed thing) is a series of compromises.

Cheers, Al

Yeah, I didn't mean to imply otherwise. My point was simply to say that all movements are a series of compromises, as you said, and, while this thread is incredibly interesting, I'm not sure I'd get rid of my co-axial because of it. It's just good to know the strengths and weaknesses of a movement, and Omega's attempt at commercializing the co-axial is a fun point in history, whether it was worthwhile or not. That's the main reason I have mine, although I only have one Omega watch, so it isn't as if I'm over the moon about the concept.

Reynold · Apr 1, 2019

Archer
Here this might help - took a video to show you...

I think with the fine tip of the lower co-axial wheel tooth going over the sharp angle of the pallet stone, it's pretty clear how wear like this happens:

Unlike a Swiss lever, where the angles between the heel of the escape wheel tooth and the leading corner of the pallet stone work together to minimize the possibility for wear, here it's the opposite in some ways. That sharp corner of the co-axial pallet fork is quite sharp.

Cheers, Al

Hi Al,

Sorry to bump up old thread, but is this teething still persist on current 8500, 8800, 8900 movement? Thanks in advance!

robinhook · Apr 1, 2019

I have to say this thread is a fantastic read and gave me a new perspective towards the co-axial tech. Thank you again Al!

Skv · Oct 26, 2019

R Reynold
Hi Al,

Sorry to bump up old thread, but is this teething still persist on current 8500, 8800, 8900 movement? Thanks in advance!

I am interested in this as well!

Claven2 · Oct 26, 2019

FWIW, I just got a 2500c back from omega service. They replaced all the escapement parts. So I have the originals in a baggie. Smallest escapement parts I've maybe ever seen.

My watchmaker runs an AD, and he says it's not worth the effort to service coaxial on site. They do all non-ciaxials in house for less than the omega charge if desired by the customer, but for the $680 omega charges for a coax movement, he just sends them all out. Not profitable use of their time to do it themselves, he claims.

To co-axial or not to co-axial or is it a case of back to the future?

Archer

Archer

4236

Geo!

Df13

ScubaPro

Archer

Archer

4236

Archer

4236

ScubaPro

Horlogerie

blubarb

Archer

Df13

Reynold

robinhook

Skv

Claven2

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