i am not really sure if my question was "thread worthy" so I hope you don't mind me just putting it out. It's about servicing Omega co-axial movements.

I was talking to a local watch maker about buying into an Omega with a co-axial movement again (I ended up selling my 2500c) and he mentioned that a special tool or special training is required to properly service co-axials therefore a full and proper service can only be done by an Omega Service Centre. Is this correct? If so, I am concerned about being restricted if the watch were to need a full service.

Would appreciate your thoughts and experiences on this.

I don't like to think that I was handing a watch over for a full service and was not getting that because the watchmaker had one hand tied behind their back.

For a neophyte still trying to understand Omega's move from the Swiss lever to the co-axial it's adding an unwanted complication to my thinking about how to approach building a collection. Right now I am thinking of staying to pre co-axials Seamasters and/or Speedmasters.

What do the collectors in the forum think?

I read this article, which doesn't exactly inspire confidence in me. http://luxurytyme.com/movement/index.html

 

I think that pretty much EVERY watch from the mid grade on up will soon be servicable only at manufacturer facilities, so a co-axial Omega isn't any different. Only watches with regular movements (like ETA or Sellita) will be the exception, and that might change a few years from now.

 

Newbie me...

oddboy
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Re: old vs new speedmaster mark ii - a newb wonders
OK, so personal preferences and some basic aesthetics notwithstanding, the original is likely easier to get serviced and has over 40 years of service to prove it's reliability whereas the 3330 is more modern, *may be* a bit more accurate, but likely harder to service outside of omega specialists.

Is that about the crux of it?

-------


And that's how it started...

 

I suppose it depends on your collection direction really. I just have a feeling that a stable of pre Omega co-axials will be easier to deal with issues well into the future. I suspect there should always be someone (he hopes) around to service and repair 1120s, 861s ans 321s, et al, sourcing parts aside

Still, I have a 3330 and a 2500 co-axials in the stable - might be best to keep them as they may become an interesting blip in the history of Omega like my "TV dial" speedy.

✌

 

I spoke to an Omega watchmaker a few years ago who told me that many co-ax movements they got to work on had been serviced incorrectly previous to them getting them, mainly related to excess oil being used. Any watchmakers here can confirm/deny ??

 

Yes, I have heard that the amount of oil required is microscopic and has to be exactly applied to a certain spot on the teeth. Too much is as bad as too little. We could end up with a lot of not correctly serviced watches unless Omega does the service. Is this part of the plan or am I too cynical?

"To gauge the proper quantity of oil, it is applied under 50 power magnification. This oil acts, not as a lubricant, but as a cushion to absorb part of the shock from the locking action. Leaving this oil off does not affect the timekeeping of the watch, but it will likely result in damage to the upper coaxial wheel teeth over time." I read that here, which is an interesting assessment from a watch makers POV: http://watchmakingblog.com/2010/05/03/omega-co-axial-training/

 

Hello blubarb,

Good questions actually, and this has been covered in bits and pieces throughout other threads, but maybe this is a chance to put something that summarizes the issues in this one thread.

Yes indeed, to service a co-axial escapement watch is very different than servicing a Swiss lever escapement. Before I went to Omega to be trained on servicing the co-axials, I turned down a ton of requests to service them, because I wanted to make sure I knew what the specifics were before I actually did any of this work. After having gone through the training a number of years ago, I can say waiting was a good decision. Although I had access to the Omega technical guides for these movements, the information there is not sufficient to do the job properly.

I use special Omega movement holders that allow me to actuate the escapement on the watch, while viewing it under a microscope at 50 power, and using a very fine oiler to apply the oil to the co-axial wheel. This is the microscope I use:



Here using it to oil a co-axial movement:



This drop of oil is at least an order of magnitude smaller than what I would use in any other oiling task in watch servicing - this is a seriously small drop of oil...I can barely see the oil on the oiler with my 10X loupe if I have picked up an amount small enough to apply it without getting too much on the tooth.

Lets look at the size of the oil drop required...here is a Cal. 2500 movement in the special holder:



Note that you oil the escapement through the dial side of the watch. Here I have use a straight pin - normal sized pin and I have put it beside the hole in the main plate where much of the oiling is done through - the hole in the plate is the size of the head of this pin:



Now lets look at the co-axial wheel, with that pin beside it - this gives you a better idea of how small what I will show in the next photo really is:



And finally, drilling down to the actual drop of oil that I place on each of the 8 lower co-axial wheel teeth (it's difficult to focus to get a good picture of this, but you can see the drop of oil there):



In addition to the 8 teeth like the one shown above, 2 more upper co-axial wheel teeth are oiled, and if it's a 2 level co-axial escapement, there are 20 teeth in the intermediate escape wheel that also need oiling (with a different oil). When I first started doing these, it was very time consuming, and just this oiling alone could take me an hour to do. I now take maybe 20 minutes, but it's something you have to keep doing on a fairly regular basis to be efficient at it really.

So when I went through the training, there were 5 watchmakers in the class including me. I pretty much had this down the first couple of times I tried it, but there were a couple of guys who took all 5 days just to get one co-axial wheel oiled on all teeth properly. If you get oil on the top of the tooth, or use too much, it has to be pulled apart, cleaned, and started again. Most people in the class said they would just send these watches to Omega to service, rather than trying to do it themselves.

And the article you mention does talk about the fact this oil is for impact, rather than for sliding friction. That is true for the co-axial wheel, and yes they do wear - here you can see the teeth of the wheel on the top are shorter than those on the bottom:



So this wheel was worn, and I'm sure Omega says these have been serviced by people who might not be trained. I'm sure that happens, but almost all the co-axial watches I've serviced have had their very first service with me, so the wear shown in all these photos is from watches that came straight from Omega, not some untrained watchmaker...this one from an AT with a Cal. 2500B:



This one from a Cal. 2500C:



So clearly these can wear either from lack of service (like any watch can) or from improper oiling. As that article states, the watch will run fine even if oiled improperly, or not oiled at all - there is no feedback to the watchmaker say on the timing machine that something is wrong, so you really have to be super meticulous in the oiling process.

So can people outside of an Omega service center service these? Yes of course - I'm working on one right now. But as I have always said, if you are not taking it to Omega, you need to confirm that whoever is doing the work has been trained by Omega on how to service these and has access to parts. The one I'm working on right now was done recently by someone else who was not an Omega trained or certified watchmaker with an account. The co-axial wheel is worn, and I suspect he either didn't recognize that is was worn, or didn't have access to a replacement wheel, so not long after that service it's in my shop getting the job done properly.

Anyway, hope this helps.

Cheers, Al

PS - I don't own a co-axial watch myself.

 

Many thanks Al for taking the considerable time to thoroughly explain the servicing of a co-axial escapement, it was thoroughly enlightening. My own feelings have been that it was an over complication that had no benefit in the real world of Horology, and you have just reinforced my view. Like you I do not own one and have absolutely no desire to.

 

Incredible! As I pick myself up from the floor I am wondering if you have ever thought of a migration plan to Australia (I could arrange the sponsors) I think we need you downunder!
Thank you, Al. It is indeed very considerate of you to go into so much detail.

I am looking at my cal. 3330 & 2500 co-ax in a new way

 

Well since my wife is a dual Australian/Canadian citizen, moving there would not be a problem I suspect. And yes we have talked about it a few times, as she would like to go "home" even though she has been in Canada longer than she lived in Oz...

If you could get rid of all the gigantic and poisonous spiders for me, I would seriously consider it!

Glad my post was helpful.

Cheers, Al

 

I let you draw your own conclusions (especially if Omega is reading these posts, which I suspect they are...)

Cheers, Al

 

My mind was already made up Al.

 

What an excellent post by Al so informative I would say better than the Omega web site. Thankfully my PO Ti 8500 is only a few months old so won't need a service for 5-7 years in hoping thT by then many many will have been serviced and everyone at Omega will be as good as AL
OmegaSean

 

Service costs in the UK at official Omega Dealers
OmegaSean

 

Thanks, Archer. Have you seen this kind of wear in the 8500 movement, yet?

 

Very interesting thread and a great post from Archer! Very informative and well written. Thank you for that.
I do however hope that the co-axial future is brighter than one might be led to fear.
Oh and before chasing off to sunny Australia you may consider Europe, Archer

 

Thanks as always for the informative post Al! And BTW, nice JLC on your wrist there ... Master compressor Memovox?

 

Yes it is! I don't wear it as much as I used to, but I don't think I'll ever sell this one...



Cheers, Al

 

I was thinking about Archer's and got to pondering what the practical (or impractical) implications are for the co-axial future. Ok, so it is more diffucult to oil correctly and failure will cause wear.
I hope I do not oversimplify, but this is what I gather it boils down to.
Are the worn parts replacable?
If replaced will this be an expensive part? Will it be a labourious and expensive task to do as part of a service? Will other parts of the watch movement be negatively affected by the wear? Will the watch's overall performance suffer in the long run?

Or is it really more a case of being left with a feeling that at the end of the day the co-axial movement has some horological, mechanical, etc shortcomings? -That it will never know the praises that fx the 5xx movements enjoy.

I remember Archer mentioning in another post, that it also comes down to which type of movement the watchmaker is used to working on.
I suppose one major flaw of the co-axial approach is that it has not stood the test of time ie 40plus years of use.
Another flaw may be - and I am not sure where I get this from - is that the co-axial design (in its evolvement) is a series of compromises and corrections.
But then what development isn't?
But I wonder if this darling should have been killed, so to speak.
I have a 8400 and so far love it.
But I am not a fanatical person and only ask these questions out of wonder and curiosity.
Happy sunday all,
jens

 

@Jensop you are over thinking. All watches will wear overtime and all watches need service. In 20 years when there is many more of these co-axial movements about it will be the most common ones serviced and repaired by Omega.

All watches that I own have different movements from different makers which will be a task for parts and service over the next 20 years.

I think the Speedmaster boys are the smartest at the moment with having all similar movements in their collections.

I think that most people have to accept that watch services are part and parcel of the owning of a mechanical watch.

All the posts I have seen over the last few months about cheap services wanted like the eBay one a few weeks ago and the like do my head in. I would love to be able to use Al @Archer but would probably have to beg as I know he is more than busy and respect that. I bet he still gets heaps of request for he's services and just as many for cheap fixes. Most here like myself are more than happy to send a watch and wait a year and pay what ever the price is no matter what. That's because we understand that with each watch bought the responsibility of servicing goes with every purchase that is made be it vintage or new.

Would I not buy something because it is new and looking like in years to come I will only be able to have it services by the manufacturer. I would then be missing out on many good watches.

My philosophy on watches,boats and cars has always been the same and always will
Buy, use (wear for watches), enjoy and service as regular needed.