time-grapher interpretation / open for all inquiries

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Hi @All . My idea: for all non-watchmakers you can drop the pictures (from the seller e.g.) here and the pro´s can comment.
I don t know theexact caliber, but it s a ROLEX 6084 Oyster Perpetual from 1952
I intend to buy..Seller says: fresh service



Tanks to all the pro´s for their answers. 👍
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Hello fallout Boy

I don't know what movement it is. the beat error is off. If it's not a fixed one you can adjust it. To a certain point, when the beat error is bad you have two lines. Important thing is you have no way to know in which direction you have to push it in order to approach zero + you have to check in the other positions and make be as even as possible in 6 positions. it really depends on the age and condition of the movement.
always regulate the beat error first as it shortens or lengthen the hairspring beacuse the hour regulator does not and must not move with it.
Your line should be as flat as possible. It can take up to one minute to stabalize on this basic machines.
You also have to check the lift angle. Your amplitude is not very good neither. You should have at least 250° and ideally around 280°; the amplitude is generally a little better with dial is up and down.
 
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Thank you Sir, but I don t have the watch 😉 and I will not ask for a regulation...
Just: do you see any severe problems/ doubts concerning the movement? Thanks for judging the amplitude 👍

 
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Generally when the amplitude is low it needs cleaning and oiling even if thre can be several other reasons (hairspring, magnetism, worn out balance staff, etc etc). The problem is that on these basic machine it does not indicate the testing duration.
exemple on a pro machine with a 60 second per position on a decently regulated speedmaster :


the six lines correspond to the six positions. Delta and maximum deviation on the two lower lines.
 
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Great- I start to understand - a little bit (more) 👍
On vintages, I don t expect chronometer-performances. I will stay away - for the price he will selll... Thank you.
 
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it really depends on many factors. On a very good movement I hope for a 20 sec delta max and a 260° amplitude minimum. On an average movement for instance a new basic seiko the official error is -20/+40...
a quick schematic :

when you move the attachement point to regulate the beat error you shorten or make the effective length of the hairspring greater. longer = slower, shorter = faster. All that is. between these two point does not count.
the attachement point is you beat error roughly speaking

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For these photos to have any real meaning, they need some context...

1 - What is the caliber?
2 - Is it fully wound or at some other state of wind?
3 - What position is the watch on the microphone stand?
4 - Has the lift angle of the timing machine been set properly?

Having said that, the only real thing I can determine from your first photo is that the beat error is too high.
 
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judging the small picture, if it's a 265 inside, regulating the beat error yourself will be difficult because it's a fixed one. That said, with such a low amplitude, it will need a service. +5 doesn't tell us what it's like in the other positions but as the amplitude and beat error are bad, the delta in six positions may be very bad too.
 
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@Archer: I add a picture, but I will not buy ;-) I am not able to answer your questions.Thank you.



Thank you all for the contribution...

This thread was intended, only to evaluate the diagramms before a buy. I am not a watchmaker ;-)
 
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judging the small picture, if it's a 265 inside, regulating the beat error yourself will be difficult because it's a fixed one. That said, with such a low amplitude, it will need a service. +5 doesn't tell us what it's like in the other positions but as the amplitude and beat error are bad, the delta in six positions may be very bad too.

It's a Cal. 645 based on what I see.

missing srcew on the oscillating weight?

No, that's not how this works. The small screw is a screw that locks the larger screw in place to keep it from backing out - two holes are provided to assist in getting the proper tension, but only one is used:

 
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Another perspective on this is that if you don't really understand what the timegrapher is telling you, maybe you shouldn't worry too much about it. When you get the watch, bring it to your watchmaker to see if the lubrication looks correct. If not, have it serviced, and then just wear the watch and enjoy it. If you wind it up and wear it for 24 hours, it will do its job and keep time for you.

After all, even if the timegrapher readings looked great (which they don't), they wouldn't give you any information about the condition of the auto-winding mechanism, which is often in bad shape in these movements (in my experience).
 
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I started this thread as a kind of help "for amateurs" to avoid any dissapointment, based on a transmitted timegrapher-diagramm before a buy. Not more.
 
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Sorry I had not seen it was a Rolex from far away. I'm not too much into Rolex movements so read what Archer says.
 
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Disclaimer: I am not a watchmaker. I've read a fair bit and I've watched some videos. You wouldn't want me to be operating on your brain if I had simply done some reading and watched some brain surgery videos . . . and I hadn't been to med school. 😉

Of course, there's a bit less at stake in evaluating the state of a watch.

That said, I have developed a scratch sheet for recording what I observe using one of those inexpensive timegraphers and then I transcribe the information onto an Excel spreadsheet.

While the instrument is not calibrated in any way, I do test under as close to identical environmental circumstances as is practical.

Here is what a 1961 Enicar Sherpa Graph Mark Ib looked like before I sent it out for service:



I use my own abbreviations for position: Dial-up, Crown-down, Dial-down, Crown-up, Crown right in the vertical and Crown to the left inverted. I probably should adopt watchmaker abbreviations.

I note the winding state and I take several readings and average them in the columns at the right. The machine itself does averages so my averages are averages of averages. In the above examples, fully wound plus 12 hours later and fully wound plus 24 hours later.

The amplitude is probably not terrible, but my experience with the Valjoux 72 is that it ought to be near 300 in the dial-up or dial-down position when newly serviced and the beat error should be below 1.0 msecs when the watch has a fixed stud carrier and 0.5 msecs or less with a mobile or adjustable stud carrier on the balance. When the amplitude is low and the watch obviously needs service I generally don't bother to try and adjust it.

When I observe a drastic drop in amplitude, say in a vertical position, I know there is friction. One can sometimes determine which bearing surface is at fault.

The columns off to the right indicate the maximum excursion of seconds per day from the "worst" performing position to the "best" performing position. Rightly or wrongly,a watchmaker is encouraged to comment, I have concluded the smaller the difference the better the watch is likely to perform . . . and a watch with a smaller overall excursion is in better shape than one that has a 28 second or 40 second difference as seen above.

I've decided that, for a right-handed person who works at a desk often and who does walk around during the day, the most important positions to balance are dial-up, followed by crown up while sitting at the desk and crown down while walking around. For a left-handed person, one substitutes crown-up for crown-down. One can actually adjust a watch to favor a left-hander or a right-hander.

One thing you may notice is that, although the watch is in need of service, you would not think so - or know so - without seeing how it performs on the timegrapher because it is keeping time quite well.

Am I overthinking things? I usually do! 😀

So now let's look at the watch after it has come back from service . . .


Unfortunately I did not yet record an FW+12 reading so that we can make a firm apples to apples comparison, but already we see good amplitude, a very low beat error rate especially for a movement with a fixed stud carrier and the maximum excursion in time-keeping in all positions is much improved.

Here we are at FW+24 hours:



The watch is running a bit fast and it does speed up a bit more after 36 hours. One could say to oneself: "Gee, the watch seems to be keeping better time before it was serviced?" The watchmaker allowed the watch to run a bit fast, but clearly, the watch has received a very good service.

There is really no way to determine whether a watch has been properly serviced without looking at it on a timegrapher or equivalent.

It is easier and now worthwhile for me to adjust the watch to my own tastes if I so choose, knowing that the watch is in a good state of repair.

Comments and criticism welcome.

Cheers,

Joe

Edit: I have left out a few additional things that I take for granted. For example, you may notice that after service the readings taken are more consistent. The beat is more stable. Also, when one looks at the graph lines on the timegrapher, they are smoother overall and there are no ticks that appear to be "out of bounds."
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