Thoughts on this 22279

fizz · Jan 24, 2022

From everything that I've read, seen, and learned so far, the 22279 is probably one of the most quintessential Tri-Compax models. I was smitten by the look of these marvelous-looking machines when I first heard the collector Max Bernardini talk about his impressive UG collection during a Christie's event at the Dubai Watch Week. He even had his collection out there, so I reached out to his site and they have a few Tri-Compax available (at a fairly hefty price I might add) but this is apparently a man who know these watches very well and is highly, from everything I can tell, reliable. The size is on the smaller size (but that's the case with these models) at 35mm, but I am hoping with its thickness due to the complications, that it wears larger on the wrist. Any thoughts on the lug to lug length of these models (sorry, can't find that info online either).

Anyway, I rather like this 22279. From serial no (115xxx) it seems to be dated to 1945 and to me, everything checks out fine except...the hands.

I've gone back to the site on UG references site that someone linked to earlier (https://universalgeneve.info) and couldn't find another 22279 with similar hands. From all the research that I've done, these should have sword/alpha hands but hey, I could be wrong. The seller says it's all original to the watch and some of these models, such as this one, came without alpha hands. I think the non-signed crown is period correct as well, but always happy to hear some of your views and thoughts around this.

I hope it's not a Franken (dial and movement from a later era put into an earlier case), since they do refer to it as a 50's Tri-compax (though again, given their repute and scholarship around these models, is unlikely...but you never know)...

Larry S · Jan 24, 2022

The case: Looks good except for what may have been an attempt to polish the inscription off the back. Crown is original.
The dial: Looks great..I cannot tell if it was ever lumed. Don’t think it was.
The Hands: Subdials/Chono sweep are good. H/M hands need to be replaced. Fortunately this is possible still.
The Moon: Is a service replacement. This was common as the moon faces did not hold up well. 50’s saw these silver moons as standard and deteriorated moon faces were changed out.
Wearing: These are indeed a great size. I have a 22242 that I love.

rustynuts · Jan 24, 2022

Larry S
The case: Looks good except for what may have been an attempt to polish the inscription off the back. Crown is original.
The dial: Looks great..I cannot tell if it was ever lumed. Don’t think it was.
The Hands: Subdials/Chono sweep are good. H/M hands need to be replaced. Fortunately this is possible still.
The Moon: Is a service replacement. This was common as the moon faces did not hold up well. 50’s saw these silver moons as standard and deteriorated moon faces were changed out.
Wearing: These are indeed a great size. I have a 22242 that I love.

The case looks damaged by the upper pusher and the pictures show two different crowns?

Oku · Jan 24, 2022

First of all, and it cannot be told enough, the case reference has nothing to do with the dial and hand configuration, at least concerning early Tri's. So if you cannot find another watch of the same reference with this dial and hands, that tells you nothing.

Larry has already summed nicely up the most points. But, as @rustynuts has mentionned there is corrosion on the case which someone tried to polish away. The polisher knew what he did so the case still looks good, but Imho it is more than lightly polished as can be seen on the back and on the tip of the lugs.
According to the serial, the watch is from 1945, not 1950, so the moon disc is a later replacement (as Larry said).

The dial is a service dial with short-tail 6 and 9 and the missing hyphen between Tri and Compax. More information here:
https://omegaforums.net/threads/ug-...eferece-guide-read-entire-thread.48137/page-7

Coming to the lume, those dials (original, not service) existed with and without lume. This one comes from a different reference, but is completely original:

and lastly, concerning your statement:

fizz
but this is apparently a man who know these watches very well and is highly, from everything I can tell, reliable.

Check this thread:
https://omegaforums.net/threads/bernardini-100-ug-event-in-milano.66000

By the way, what's the asking price?

Larry S · Jan 24, 2022

Oku
First of all, and it cannot be told enough, the case reference has nothing to do with the dial and hand configuration, at least concerning early Tri's. So if you cannot find another watch of the same reference with this dial and hands, that tells you nothing.

Larry has already summed nicely up the most points. But, as @rustynuts has mentionned there is corrosion on the case which someone tried to polish away. The polisher knew what he did so the case still looks good, but Imho it is more than lightly polished as can be seen on the back and on the tip of the lugs.
According to the serial, the watch is from 1945, not 1950, so the moon disc is a later replacement (as Larry said).

The dial is a service dial with short-tail 6 and 9 and the missing hyphen between Tri and Compax. More information here:
https://omegaforums.net/threads/ug-...eferece-guide-read-entire-thread.48137/page-7

Coming to the lume, those dials (original, not service) existed with and without lume. This one comes from a different reference, but is completely original:

and lastly, concerning your statement:

Check this thread:
https://omegaforums.net/threads/bernardini-100-ug-event-in-milano.66000

By the way, what's the asking price?

Absolutely right on the dial. Missed that … Moon makes sense now since they were changed together. What I don’t get is the hands. Also missed who is selling this. Now I really don’t get the hands. He has parts. He knows better. Given his prices, I’d demand a set of correct hands.

Oku · Jan 24, 2022

Larry S
Now I really don’t get the hands

What's the problem with the hands? Leaf hands are totally fine, if the dial is not lumed.
But agreed, it's hard to tell if the dial is lumed or not.

Larry S · Jan 24, 2022

Oku
What's the problem with the hands? Leaf hands are totally fine, if the dial is not lumed.
But agreed, it's hard to tell if the dial is lumed or not.

Ok went to his store. The hour hand has a broken tip, no lume on the dial. I’d ask for a new set of hands or at least a new hour hand.

bgrisso · Jan 24, 2022

rustynuts
The case looks damaged by the upper pusher and the pictures show two different crowns?

yes the case damage is a major issue. Plus the service dial. Plus the replaced moon disc. I can't quite tell on the hour hand, it looks a bit wonky.

I assume the asking price is high. I had a quick look on the site and of the three Tri for sale, all three have service dials, with no mention of it.

Larry S · Jan 24, 2022

bgrisso
yes the case damage is a major issue. Plus the service dial. Plus the replaced moon disc. I can't quite tell on the hour hand, it looks a bit wonky.

I assume the asking price is high. I had a quick look on the site and of the three Tri for sale, all three have service dials, with no mention of it.

Just figured out what you guys are seeing. Yep chunk is missing. If the price is right, the service moon and dial OK. The hour hand is damaged but is addressable. The case damage however is a dealbreaker. for me.

fizz · Jan 25, 2022

First of all, I must say, that this is some very, very impressive combined knowledge that you guys bring to situations like this. I read and re-read all of your replies and even went back to the images to verify my understanding.

I grasp all of it except one thing, but allow me to summarise my thoughts below so it's clearer:

1 - As suspected the hands (specifically the hour and minute hands) are replacements (I sort of pat myself for noticing that by comparing with similar listings on Hodinkee and on the UG reference pages). I assume what I refer to as sword (or alpha) hands would be right for this reference? A certain seller on ebay frequently brings these up for sale but we can discuss this if there is an intent to pursue (which now seems to be a bit in doubt). I specifically asked about the originality of the hands and was told it was original.
2 - I think the dial was one threw me off the most. It is in great condition (though weather and time beaten, as it should be), however I couldn't (and still can't) find a similar dial from that era so it made me reconsider whether it was period correct. Again, my hunch is confirmed by the thread linked by @Oku (many, many thanks), that since it lacks the dash ("-") between Tri and Compax it must be a service dial. Which is a shame because it is really a good condition, quality dial. I did not specifically ask about the originality and period correctness of the dial. I will also now reference that other thread in it's entirety so that I am better informed. A question, knowing that any real insight from UG itself is missing - how accurate are the inferences made on that thread or are they best speculative?
3 - Moon: Since you've taught me how to fish so far, I'd like to know, how did you determine that the moon is a replacement? Especially since the moonface isn't even shown....
4 - Case. This is the one that really puzzles me. I can see dings and small dents but I can't see the case damage that everyone refers to especially near the upper pusher. Can someone highlight or point out what they specifically mean about the dial being damaged?
5 - Crown: I see now in the movement picture that the crown does appear to have a UG logo which it shouldn't. I specifically asked about the crown and was told it does not have the logo, so is the movement picture even of the same watch? I'll have to ask again...
6 - Hour hand tip damage: Yup, can see it on a pic that I didn't share (see below).
7 - Price: They are asking 8500 Euro but it's negotiable. This puts it in the same ballpark as other models of this reference sold by Hodinkee in the past couple of years (but they had the right hands and I assume but have not verified, the dials as well). The other tri-compax are gold which I would not consider (only SS unfortunately). They have 2 other UG that I am interested in that are cheaper but they aren't Tri-Compax. I will talk about those separately, if I wish to pursue.

Again, incredibly thankful, not just for the hints and tips but the learning!!!

Looking forward to more of your comments and thoughts.

Larry S · Jan 25, 2022

Case broke away. It’s been worked on. My guess is the dealer replaced the crown with a period correct one. Given that it has service parts it would be logical that the crown was replaced when dial and hands were.

Larry S · Jan 25, 2022

To sum. Damaged case. The tip on the hour (leaf) hand is broken off. The moon and the dial are UG issued service parts. As to how we know about the dial and the moon, this is detective work done by the network, some of whom knew UG employees or knew people that did, and uploaded to the forum. Regarding the moon, these appear on original 50s watches as does the crown logo so we “know” this transition began late 40s early 50s. It is important to remember UG is dead as a doornail. It was chaos at the end and folks just grabbed parts and what documents they could salvage. Sala did his best but even his book is incomplete. We see patterns and make inferences. If you seek absolutes, there are none. These SS models from the 40s saw hard duty, it was common to replace worn parts, no one thought that folks like us would be obsessing in the next century. This dealer is a UG insider, thus the frustration on our part that he would put this out.

bgrisso · Jan 25, 2022

fizz
First of all, I must say, that this is some very, very impressive combined knowledge that you guys bring to situations like this. I read and re-read all of your replies and even went back to the images to verify my understanding.

I grasp all of it except one thing, but allow me to summarise my thoughts below so it's clearer:

1 - As suspected the hands (specifically the hour and minute hands) are replacements (I sort of pat myself for noticing that by comparing with similar listings on Hodinkee and on the UG reference pages). I assume what I refer to as sword (or alpha) hands would be right for this reference? A certain seller on ebay frequently brings these up for sale but we can discuss this if there is an intent to pursue (which now seems to be a bit in doubt). I specifically asked about the originality of the hands and was told it was original.
2 - I think the dial was one threw me off the most. It is in great condition (though weather and time beaten, as it should be), however I couldn't (and still can't) find a similar dial from that era so it made me reconsider whether it was period correct. Again, my hunch is confirmed by the thread linked by @Oku (many, many thanks), that since it lacks the dash ("-") between Tri and Compax it must be a service dial. Which is a shame because it is really a good condition, quality dial. I did not specifically ask about the originality and period correctness of the dial. I will also now reference that other thread in it's entirety so that I am better informed. A question, knowing that any real insight from UG itself is missing - how accurate are the inferences made on that thread or are they best speculative?
3 - Moon: Since you've taught me how to fish so far, I'd like to know, how did you determine that the moon is a replacement? Especially since the moonface isn't even shown....
4 - Case. This is the one that really puzzles me. I can see dings and small dents but I can't see the case damage that everyone refers to especially near the upper pusher. Can someone highlight or point out what they specifically mean about the dial being damaged?
5 - Crown: I see now in the movement picture that the crown does appear to have a UG logo which it shouldn't. I specifically asked about the crown and was told it does not have the logo, so is the movement picture even of the same watch? I'll have to ask again...
6 - Hour hand tip damage: Yup, can see it on a pic that I didn't share (see below).
7 - Price: They are asking 8500 Euro but it's negotiable. This puts it in the same ballpark as other models of this reference sold by Hodinkee in the past couple of years (but they had the right hands and I assume but have not verified, the dials as well). The other tri-compax are gold which I would not consider (only SS unfortunately). They have 2 other UG that I am interested in that are cheaper but they aren't Tri-Compax. I will talk about those separately, if I wish to pursue.

Again, incredibly thankful, not just for the hints and tips but the learning!!!

Looking forward to more of your comments and thoughts.

its good you asked here before buying. 8500 euros is way too much. For that kind of money you should be getting closer to a completely correct oversized SS Tri.

As Oku already said, the case reference tells you nothing about the dial or hands type, there are not fixed combinations during this time period. It's completely possible and even likely that leaf hands would have been original to this watch, but there is no way of knowing, since we do not even know the original dial.

the moonphase disc is visible enough in photos to see it is the later type (without face), and the case serial places this in a time period where the moonphase disc should have a face.

I think all your other questions have been answered. Happy Hunting ! Be patient and keep running options by forum members.

fizz · Jan 25, 2022

Thank you @Larry S and @bgrisso for your detailed and insightful responses.

For the record, for a UG novice such as myself, I would never pull the trigger on a Tri-Compax (or even another model from their back catalog) without first checking the collective inputs of the community because unlike say Vintage Rolex or Omega sports models which have a wealth of easily accessible published information out there (including sites dedicated to specific models with scholarly wisdom about model differences and other nuances), nothing as authoritative exists for UG (other than the Sala book, which is both expensive, inaccessible and I now understand, not complete).

Having said that, my current situation reminds me of the time I was first getting into vintage Rolex about 7 years ago. Many told me then that for the price I was being quoted by dealers or sellers, I should expect more because their experience from the recent past implied that for that price the condition should be better OR it should be much cheaper. However, prices since then have only risen and I suspect that the same might be true of UG. For similar 5 digit Tri-Compax models in much more pristine condition, I have been quoted nearly double by many dealers. Sure, the condition of this watch isn't perfect, perhaps less than ideal but I am afraid this is what you get in 2022 for that price and if someone can point me to a place with a specimen that's in better condition than this for nearly the same price, I'd be overjoyed to be proven wrong.

To expect more (let's say a similar model without most of the obvious flaws such as dial, case, hands, etc.) would require being ready to pay at least 10k USD, if not more (see this recent example sold by Hodinkee and also Sabi watches - both at approx 10k USD, though they are later models). Part of me regret not buying those since they showed up within a few weeks of each other but were rather quickly picked up (one I believe by another forum member right here).

P.S. Thanks for clarifying how the moon was a giveaway (lack of moon face is how I have interpreted it). Is there another reference where I can read more about moon faces by era/movement?

Oku · Jan 25, 2022

fizz
Having said that, my current situation reminds me of the time I was first getting into vintage Rolex about 7 years ago. Many told me then that for the price I was being quoted by dealers or sellers, I should expect more because their experience from the recent past implied that for that price the condition should be better OR it should be much cheaper. However, prices since then have only risen and I suspect that the same might be true of UG. For similar 5 digit Tri-Compax models in much more pristine condition, I have been quoted nearly double by many dealers. Sure, the condition of this watch isn't perfect, perhaps less than ideal but I am afraid this is what you get in 2022 for that price and if someone can point me to a place with a specimen that's in better condition than this for nearly the same price, I'd be overjoyed to be proven wrong.

https://catalog.antiquorum.swiss/en/lots/universal-geneve-ref-22539-tri-compax-lot-346-378?page=19
Quod erat demonstrandum

So what do I get for this proof?😁

Joke aside: Even if I like the idea that a good Tri Compax sells for 10k or more, that is not the reality. Agreed, the times have passed when you were able to find a good Tri at 3k, but 4 to 5 or at least 6k is imho still possible.

And another note: The service dial of the Tri in question is not that despicable as it sounds. It is still a legit UG dial of that era. Just not original to the watch. The other issues are much more of a concern particularly at that price.

Larry S · Jan 25, 2022

@fizz ...I don't think you are wrong about prices and what is available especially from dealers. Dealers are always more expensive because of their overheads. There are only so many watches from a defunct manufacturer. I have to chuckle when you say Rolex is well documented. Its still amazing how many grey areas and differences of opinion exist.

The two killers on this piece IMO are the hour hand (fixable) and the broken case below the upper pusher (deal killer) .

The service dial and moon, are UG issued parts, part of the watch history as is the inscription. If they were the only issues, that watch would be worth negotiating for. (Although i doubt you would be able to get him to move that much) What we are suggesting is that you watch the sales threads here, keep up with the UG forum here. Ask informed questions. If you are going to drop 5K+ on a watch, Sala is a worthy investment even if it is only directional. I've already had to tape the spine on my copy.

The only place you are going to find a discussion of fonts, moon discs, dials, hands is here. Sometimes the discussions are "robust".

Since you want to dive into this pool, and I don't blame you, the Tri is such a cool design, you need to have a good watchmaker to care for these old birds.

bgrisso · Jan 25, 2022

fizz
Thank you @Larry S and @bgrisso for your detailed and insightful responses.

For the record, for a UG novice such as myself, I would never pull the trigger on a Tri-Compax (or even another model from their back catalog) without first checking the collective inputs of the community because unlike say Vintage Rolex or Omega sports models which have a wealth of easily accessible published information out there (including sites dedicated to specific models with scholarly wisdom about model differences and other nuances), nothing as authoritative exists for UG (other than the Sala book, which is both expensive, inaccessible and I now understand, not complete).

Having said that, my current situation reminds me of the time I was first getting into vintage Rolex about 7 years ago. Many told me then that for the price I was being quoted by dealers or sellers, I should expect more because their experience from the recent past implied that for that price the condition should be better OR it should be much cheaper. However, prices since then have only risen and I suspect that the same might be true of UG. For similar 5 digit Tri-Compax models in much more pristine condition, I have been quoted nearly double by many dealers. Sure, the condition of this watch isn't perfect, perhaps less than ideal but I am afraid this is what you get in 2022 for that price and if someone can point me to a place with a specimen that's in better condition than this for nearly the same price, I'd be overjoyed to be proven wrong.

To expect more (let's say a similar model without most of the obvious flaws such as dial, case, hands, etc.) would require being ready to pay at least 10k USD, if not more (see this recent example sold by Hodinkee and also Sabi watches - both at approx 10k USD, though they are later models). Part of me regret not buying those since they showed up within a few weeks of each other but were rather quickly picked up (one I believe by another forum member right here).

P.S. Thanks for clarifying how the moon was a giveaway (lack of moon face is how I have interpreted it). Is there another reference where I can read more about moon faces by era/movement?

round pushers models are generally more expensive than square pushers.

fizz · Feb 1, 2022

Oku
https://catalog.antiquorum.swiss/en/lots/universal-geneve-ref-22539-tri-compax-lot-346-378?page=19
Quod erat demonstrandum

So what do I get for this proof?😁

Joke aside: Even if I like the idea that a good Tri Compax sells for 10k or more, that is not the reality. Agreed, the times have passed when you were able to find a good Tri at 3k, but 4 to 5 or at least 6k is imho still possible.

And another note: The service dial of the Tri in question is not that despicable as it sounds. It is still a legit UG dial of that era. Just not original to the watch. The other issues are much more of a concern particularly at that price.

Thanks @Oku, I guess the lesson here is that I need to look harder.

Didn't know antiquorum had an auction recently. That particular model, given its size of 37mm, looks like it went for a steal, relatively speaking!

fizz · Feb 1, 2022

Larry S
@fizz ...I don't think you are wrong about prices and what is available especially from dealers. Dealers are always more expensive because of their overheads. There are only so many watches from a defunct manufacturer. I have to chuckle when you say Rolex is well documented. Its still amazing how many grey areas and differences of opinion exist.

The two killers on this piece IMO are the hour hand (fixable) and the broken case below the upper pusher (deal killer) .

The service dial and moon, are UG issued parts, part of the watch history as is the inscription. If they were the only issues, that watch would be worth negotiating for. (Although i doubt you would be able to get him to move that much) What we are suggesting is that you watch the sales threads here, keep up with the UG forum here. Ask informed questions. If you are going to drop 5K+ on a watch, Sala is a worthy investment even if it is only directional. I've already had to tape the spine on my copy.

The only place you are going to find a discussion of fonts, moon discs, dials, hands is here. Sometimes the discussions are "robust".

Since you want to dive into this pool, and I don't blame you, the Tri is such a cool design, you need to have a good watchmaker to care for these old birds.

Thanks for your insight @Larry S, I guess what I meant to say is that at least with some of the more common Rolex sports models, where are are nuances and variations, there are generally agreed upon foundations that make the search easier, many of which have been put together in easy to access and reference websites as well.

I now monitor the sales threads here (and in a few other places) constantly, so hopefully, something comes along real soon.

fizz · Feb 12, 2022

So just an update and to bring closure to this...this watch has been sold. Hopefully, no one here bought it.

Original list link if anyone is interested (and for posterity's sake):

https://www.bernardinimilano.com/products/universal-geneve-tri-compax-17

Thoughts on this 22279

fizz

Larry S

rustynuts

Oku

Larry S

Oku

Larry S

bgrisso

Larry S

fizz

Larry S

Larry S

bgrisso

fizz

Oku

Larry S

bgrisso

fizz

fizz

fizz

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