Thoughts on these two connies for a rookie

waterproofpt · Apr 5, 2015

These look to be redialled to me. Is that the case here? They look great to me, but what does that do to their value and desirability? And as far as the arrowhead vs the other markers, what are your thoughts. Any other comments would be hugely informative for me as well as I'm on the steep part of the learning curve here. At this point I don't have the details on the case and caliber numbers, so assuming they are correctly matched to the dials .... Just your observations on what we see here would be great. Thanks.

Beefylugs · Apr 5, 2015

cross hair + black dial + neat > too much of a good thing > redial ! 😀

hoipolloi · Apr 5, 2015

What you need is experience. You should be able to tell the case reference by only one picture. Then you should be able to tell which font would fit into what case ref. where the cross hair should cut the Constellation. ..where the Swiss Made should be or how thick how long the minute markers .....
Then you will become an expert .

CanberraOmega · Apr 5, 2015

Definitely redials. A few of the indications:
- the font of "constellation" is FAR too thick in both of them
- the star is off alignment in the second
- the "swiss made" text is wrong in the first

Tiny Iota · Apr 5, 2015

CanberraOmega
Definitely redials. A few of the indications:
- the font of "constellation" is FAR too thick in both of them
- the star is off alignment in the second
- the "swiss made" text is wrong in the first

I noticed 2 out of those 3. Getting better... 😀

CanberraOmega · Apr 5, 2015

Tiny Iota
I noticed 2 out of those 3. Getting better... 😀

I am still an amateur, but those things jumped straight out at me. Wat you shoild do is closely examine every letter of the word Constellation on an original dia, how the leters angle, the crossbars on the two Ts, etc, etc.

gatorcpa · Apr 5, 2015

Put this website on your favorites list:

http://omega-constellation-collectors.blogspot.com/?m=0

Make sure you read the essay on Constellation dials.

http://omega-constellation-collectors.blogspot.com/2007/08/dial-update.html?m=0

Then look at several thousand of these on the Internet.

Then still prepare to be fooled every now and then.
gatorcpa

waterproofpt · Apr 5, 2015

Much appreciated. I'm not trying to shortcut what I know is a long process. But I have caught the bug and thus forum is a great source for learning. . Is a redial EVER acceptable? I expect if a person simply likes the look of it and is prepared to accept it then it is but as a collector piece ? I'm going to guess the answer is 'no'. Is that correct? Having those tells pointed out certainly helps me, and others hopefully, learn. Are there any other tells?
As a more general question, What can be said about the styles of markers and their desirability, rarity ( is that a word?) etc. . For eg. Arrowhead vs other.

waterproofpt · Apr 5, 2015

Let me try a couple .......
No serifs on the font under OMEGA?
Too much 'bleed' between the letters in 'OMEGA' ?

gatorcpa · Apr 5, 2015

You asked if a redial was ever acceptable. That is a matter of opinion. To me, it is, but only if disclosed at the time of sale.

Problem is that most sellers have no clue and some use plays on words like claiming a dial is "original" when the only thing original about it is the metal underneath.

This is a lot like the subject of cleaning coins. Some say never, some say only when absolutely necessary and some say it makes the watch saleable. To each their own.

I think most of us agree that redialing a watch incorrectly will severely damage the value to a collector unless the piece is so exceedingly rare that you'll never see another. Most redialing work is haphazard at best and ugly at worst. Omega has some many different fonts and logos that no company has all the combinations.

For some brands, there are companies that can accurately reproduce dials using original processes. Hamilton and International Dial is a good example of this.

Hope this helps,
gatorcpa

waterproofpt · Apr 5, 2015

@gatorcpa Indeed that does help a lot.

So would you put these dials into the category of unacceptable restorations for the collector but possibly acceptable to the newbie who is putting the 'look' ahead of authenticity?

I'm going to quote something I found in one of the links you ( @gatorcpa ) posted earlier.

"First, there is a market for new-old in any stream of collectibles, and, judging by the mountain of literature written about the new-old segment of various markets, it’s usually where intrigued amateurs or freshly minted neophytes land. Refurbished collectibles are generally a sellers market rather than a buyers market, because buyers do not make distinctions other than visual appeal and mythical investment value of vintage collectibles, thus placing themselves at the mercy of sellers - same thing with vintage watches."

And this ....quoting from the same source, and possibly for the benefit of those like me who are trying to soak it all up .. making the distinction between conservation, refurbishment and restoration.

http://omega-constellation-collectors.blogspot.ca/2006/11/conserving-restoring-or-refurbishing.html

In reviewing a large range of books and magazines on horological restoration and analysing academic pronouncements on the conservation of our technological heritage, I believe the following points are worthy of consideration:

Conservation is the preferred option for important watches and clocks, particularly those that embody technological innovation. Restoration amounts to wanton destruction of heritage.

The more rare the object, the greater the case for conservation over restoration. Would a 1970s Calibre 700 Omega Constellation ultra thin circular lever movement limited to 12,500 pieces fit this category?

In the case of mass-produced watches, restoration is favoured by both the ‘expert’ and the knowledgeable ends of the market. Values are higher for working models that meet fully a manufacturers specifications. In some cases, a watch that has retained all of its original factory assembled parts, even though regulated to compensate for wear, will fetch more than a restored watch that has had replacement parts.

As the vintage watch market has grown both in size and breadth, there is a growing segment that values ‘functional’ restoration - replacement of worn movement parts and conservation that stabilises non-working parts of a watch.

Refurbishment of part, as opposed to the whole, of a watch is generally preferred by all ends of the market except the new-old segment. Refurbishment is generally seen as an option when there are no other options.

Refurbishment to create a new-old watch has a market for newbies. The prices paid can be high but re-selling values can be severely discounted.

As a personal comment .... I find myself getting sucked into the 'look' (but wanting authenticity). Typical newb tendancy from the sounds of it. I just have to keep working at understanding what 'authentic' is. I DO love the research. Always have .... just now applying it to a new interest. And enjoying it immensely.

... and again ..... Thanks for the support ...

gatorcpa · Apr 5, 2015

waterproofpt
So would you put these dials into the category of unacceptable restorations for the collector but possibly acceptable to the newbie who is putting the 'look' ahead of authenticity?

Yes, but remember that someone had to pay for the "restoration". The seller would generally like that to be you.

IMO, the value gets cut in half when it is redialled over one with a decent original dial. Now to be fair, a lot of these watches had old and tired dials that may have been beyond help. But as they say, it can only be original once.

The only thing I can say is, don't overpay. From the information posted, there is no way I can tell what that would be.
gatorcpa

CanberraOmega · Apr 5, 2015

@waterproofpt welcome and congrats for throwing your head into the 'books' like this. As you can see, people here are more than happy to help anyone who demonstrated they were willing to learn'

Drawarms · Apr 5, 2015

Beefylugs
cross hair + black dial + neat > too much of a good thing > redial ! 😀

what he said lol

waterproofpt · Apr 7, 2015

Just to verify. I enquired and the dials had been completely redone. Black paint and lettering all redone. Pretty decent job, but too difficult to get the font details just right. Every thing else in the watches matched properly. Case movement etc. and they had been completely serviced. I totally respect the honesty of the seller. But .... As nice as they may look. I'm buying into the 'no redials' philosophy. But I sure would like a nice black dial ... So I'll just hafta wait.
On the aside. I've now spent the better part of the last couple of days reading the Connie blog. I'd seen parts of it before, but more of it is sinking in now that I've got a slightly better frame of reference. Won't be the last time I'll go back to it. [emoji2]
Cheers.

Thoughts on these two connies for a rookie

waterproofpt

Beefylugs

hoipolloi

CanberraOmega

Tiny Iota

CanberraOmega

gatorcpa

waterproofpt

waterproofpt

gatorcpa

waterproofpt

gatorcpa

CanberraOmega

Drawarms

waterproofpt

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