Thoughts on these two 145.022s

percymon · Sep 16, 2019

Would appreciate some thoughts on these two , as looking at my first speedy purchase and after weeks of reading i'm more confused than ever !

Watch 1 - supposedly a 1969 Pre-moon with 861 calibre. My queries are mainly the lume, which looks too white to my eyes , I'm expecting much more ageing for a 50yr old. Also the outer edge damage to the bezel at 1 o'clock and the adjacent case lug -I suppose it's to be expected, more so if its been left rather polished out with loss of case shape ? The two lume dots at 12 look to be different colours, re-lume ??

Watch 2 - a much later 861 from ca 1994, recently serviced. Comes with original bezel ring as well as the one fitted. Clearly has been refurbed / polished at some point in recent history, perhaps over polished, especially the bracelet.

The lume looks no less aged than watch 1 ?

Now as much as i'd like to find a watch as close to my birth year of 1969, I'm not sure that watch 1 is worth the additional 20% over watch 2, especially as it doesnt feature a bracelet (not that thats a real issue, as i prefer the look on a aged leather strap)

On another note I'm half thinking about just buying a new, unworn 2018 moonwatch in the large black box, with paperweight; partly because i'm not sure my OCD would be content with an older watch with wear n tear.

squarelug · Sep 16, 2019

You could also find an older one in better condition - just have to be patient and build strength by saying no 😀

Sherbie · Sep 16, 2019

Yep, keep looking

Dan S · Sep 16, 2019

Pass on both of them. In general, you should expect to pay much more than a 20% premium for a pre-moon 145.022 model over a 1990s model. I would expect more like a 50% premium.

percymon · Sep 17, 2019

Dan S
Pass on both of them. In general, you should expect to pay much more than a 20% premium for a pre-moon 145.022 model over a 1990s model. I would expect more like a 50% premium.

Sherbie
Yep, keep looking

Thanks for the feedback guys - i suppose the premium on the first one would be nearer 35% if its was a like for like bracelet equipped comparison. Yes, keep looking I guess, although its hard to sift through those with relatively undamaged bezels and highly polished examples.

percymon · Sep 17, 2019

squarelug
You could also find an older one in better condition - just have to be patient and build strength by saying no 😀

Patience indeed, and I hope you are correct - perhaps i just have to wait for the moon landing anniversary chatter to die down and asking prices become more sensible.

fbf · Sep 18, 2019

try look on the bay. I have had good luck with a couple japanese sellers for my 145.022

bimmernerd · Sep 19, 2019

F fbf
try look on the bay. I have had good luck with a couple japanese sellers for my 145.022

+1. There's one for sale for $4,500 right now. Seems to be in good shape as well.

squarelug · Sep 19, 2019

You will find one eventually. Be patient!

GMTspeedmaster · Sep 19, 2019

Screwbacks · Sep 19, 2019

if you are a vintage collector, as i am, easy choice for me is no.1 taking into consideration that all parts are correct and in wirking condition. bracelet is not necessary for me.

enjoy your quest.

percymon · Sep 20, 2019

F fbf
try look on the bay. I have had good luck with a couple japanese sellers for my 145.022

bimmernerd
+1. There's one for sale for $4,500 right now. Seems to be in good shape as well.

I’m checking eBay at least daily. Plenty from Japan but they even the later models look over polished , great if you want a fresh new look I suppose

percymon · Sep 20, 2019

Screwbacks
if you are a vintage collector, as i am, easy choice for me is no.1 taking into consideration that all parts are correct and in wirking condition. bracelet is not necessary for me.

enjoy your quest.

Seller offered it to me with some discount, but there’s too much case damage/wear for my tastes and the price being asked.

JwRosenthal · Sep 20, 2019

There is no reason to think that the lume on #1 isn't original- the lume on my '72 Speedy is twice as bright and far closer to white than this. If the watch hasn't had any moisture intrusion during it's life, there is no reason for it to degrade and darken down as you see so often (not darken like yellow to orange which is natural but darken like moldy green or ashy dirty school bus- towards black- which is lume soaking up moisture like a sponge). Inside the case is a different world than outside the case. This watch has seen a touch of moisture, but not bad. If the worn bezel bothers you (as they tend to bother me), just swap it off for a modern service bezel (and put the original away), and that will really freshen it up. I know a lot of collectors frown on that, but I did that with mine and it was pretty unanimous that it was a dramatic improvement over the shabby-chic it has before a new crystal and bezel- and it's cheap and reversible.

I think watch #1 is a nice honest watch, the only thing that would bother me is the loss of lume on the hands. Vintage hands can be sourced (they pop up in the parts section on this forum occasionally) to correct that without going to new SLN hands- but you need to factor that into the cost of the watch.

I agree that waiting for a "nicer" example is always preferable, but aside of the hands and it being filthy (can use a good scrub and a polish on the crystal) I see nothing wrong with it as a great daily wear if the price is right.

Watch #2 is just a Speedmaster from the 90's, nothing special other than it has a tritium dial. If the price is a steal it would be a nice daily.

percymon · Sep 20, 2019

JwRosenthal
There is no reason to think that the lume on #1 isn't original- the lume on my '72 Speedy is twice as bright and far closer to white than this. If the watch hasn't had any moisture intrusion during it's life, there is no reason for it to degrade and darken down as you see so often (not darken like yellow to orange which is natural but darken like moldy green or ashy dirty school bus- towards black- which is lume soaking up moisture like a sponge). Inside the case is a different world than outside the case. This watch has seen a touch of moisture, but not bad. If the worn bezel bothers you (as they tend to bother me), just swap it off for a modern service bezel (and put the original away), and that will really freshen it up. I know a lot of collectors frown on that, but I did that with mine and it was pretty unanimous that it was a dramatic improvement over the shabby-chic it has before a new crystal and bezel- and it's cheap and reversible.

I think watch #1 is a nice honest watch, the only thing that would bother me is the loss of lume on the hands. Vintage hands can be sourced (they pop up in the parts section on this forum occasionally) to correct that without going to new SLN hands- but you need to factor that into the cost of the watch.

I agree that waiting for a "nicer" example is always preferable, but aside of the hands and it being filthy (can use a good scrub and a polish on the crystal) I see nothing wrong with it as a great daily wear if the price is right.

Watch #2 is just a Speedmaster from the 90's, nothing special other than it has a tritium dial. If the price is a steal it would be a nice daily.

Thanks for the input and some good points - absolutely agree on watch 2, a bit over polished for me, and at equiv of $4k I think a bit overpriced for mid 90s, one of multitude, watches.

Watch 1 was offered to me at equiv of $5.3k - i think that's over priced too (note prices in UK seem to be ca 20% higher than USA, which no doubt reflects the extra costs in import duty to get a similar watch from the USA ). Valid point about replacing the bezel for a newer one, a smarter bezel would make it more appealing to me as a wearable watch, whilst retaining the original item for resale. My main concern with the lume was the two dots at 12, one looks to have suffered (perhaps water ingress). Factor in a service, sympathetic case clean and refinish, plus the bezel and i'm not convinced its a good buy overall. And then possibly looking at better hands ?

JwRosenthal · Sep 20, 2019

P percymon
Thanks for the input and some good points - absolutely agree on watch 2, a bit over polished for me, and at equiv of $4k I think a bit overpriced for mid 90s, one of multitude, watches.

Watch 1 was offered to me at equiv of $5.3k - i think that's over priced too (note prices in UK seem to be ca 20% higher than USA, which no doubt reflects the extra costs in import duty to get a similar watch from the USA ). Valid point about replacing the bezel for a newer one, a smarter bezel would make it more appealing to me as a wearable watch, whilst retaining the original item for resale. My main concern with the lume was the two dots at 12, one looks to have suffered (perhaps water ingress). Factor in a service, sympathetic case clean and refinish, plus the bezel and i'm not convinced its a good buy overall. And then possibly looking at better hands ?

I'm not well versed in the Speedy market (I have owned mine for a while so I don't shop them, just observe), but that does sound high for a '69 in that shape, needing another $1k thrown at it to be what you want (service, new bezel, crystal and replacement hands).
It looks to me that the second pip at 12 may actually be missing and not just darker (would need a better pic). I have seen pips fall off, sometimes if it's floating around at the bottom of the dial, they can be reattached. But agreed- that mismatched pip would drive nuts.

If this watch were offered at around $2k less, then it would be a nice value when you were done and you could spring to have the hands relumed (no lume there so no loss of originality) and the missing/damaged pip reproduced by the same artisan as the hands to make it all match. There are a few threads on this forum about the master re-lumer's and what they can do.

Or as said by those much wiser than me- just pass and wait for one that's already serviced, without the cosmetic issues and is ready to roll. The '69's come up often in the classified's here

Thoughts on these two 145.022s

percymon

squarelug

Sherbie

Dan S

percymon

percymon

fbf

bimmernerd

squarelug

GMTspeedmaster

Screwbacks

percymon

percymon

JwRosenthal

percymon

JwRosenthal

Similar threads

I’ve been trying to decide between these two watches

How did I do on these Seamasters?

Omega 166.010 - should I pull the trigger on one of these two?

Found these two older Zenith watches on ebay, are either of them worth picking up?

Need help identifying these markings on my 135.020

Thoughts on this Triple Date?