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The trouble with making an offer...
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JwRosenthal
·5-10 years the irk is usually a smirk 😎
If I hunted around I could have found another for $600, maybe haggled the seller down to $750, stupid me for paying top of market value at the time.
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lindo
·I guess it depends on the car. For most, yes there is a negotiation process, but for my last one it was a months long waiting list, and paying full price, because there was a list of people behind me willing to pay it if I wasn’t.
Houses...well getting a lower price than list isn’t really possible, but here you had better be prepared to pay well above asking if you want the house.
For watches, if I think the price is fair, then I’ll simply buy it rather than quibble over a few percentage points. Unlike yourself, I’m not a “buyer and seller” so consider me nuts if you want. I’ve not been unhappy with the price of any watch I’ve ever bought, but I’m not flipping them either, and tend to keep them long term.
Just a different perspective...
Cheers, Al
Hi Al. Until I started seriously forming a collection of vintage Constellations a few years ago, my watch ownership was minimal. I would buy new and wear it for a few years, then sell it in order to purchase something better, or just different. Not really a watch collector at all.
My buying and selling experience comes from antique arms, scientific and medical instruments, antique boxes, Japanese swords and such like. I happily paid top dollar for outstanding pieces and never regretted it. If I ever had to sell them later it was because something even more exciting (and expensive) was demanding my attention.
I also got pleasure in finding good quality things that were neglected or broken, which with sympathetic and careful work could be restored to their former glory. I still find myself buying damaged or neglected antique objects because they are projects I can enjoy - but not watches, as I am no watchmaker. For my watch collection I buy the best condition I can find.
So I have never been a watch flipper in the business sense. In fact I find the Rolex flipping phenomenon of the last few years really distasteful, and can easily see where you are coming from.
To offer an example of my rationale for price negotiation, consider this: a Flightmaster recently caught my eye because it was in original unpolished condition, and I had been thinking about adding an example to my collection of vintage Omegas.
However I thought the price was too ambitious. I said to the vendor that although his price was similar to some on Chrono24, they were hardly representative of the real market. Sellers on this Forum would offer a similar watch for around $600 less than his price, and all I had to do was wait until the next one came up.
So I made him an offer at that lower level, and he promptly accepted it. No drama, no haggling - just a simple explanation of where I was coming from and how much I was prepared to pay.
If I had not negotiated, I am pretty sure that he would still have the watch.
And in keeping with the demand for images, here it is.
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Pazzo
·..........................................
If I had not negotiated, I am pretty sure that he would still have the watch.
And in keeping with the demand for images, here it is.
Not so sure about that.
I mean, if someone really wants something, they'll get it even knowing that they're paying more.
Nice watch and box. Congratulations.
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Wryfox
·To show respect in a negotiation, you must have a price in mind.
I negotiate alot....and always have a well researched price, and usually offer to share that research if I think the seller is working with me.
Just going in to get as much as possible, or pay as little as possible, never seems to work well because your desperation to get the better of the other person always shows through. Always.
That's pretty much life in general, when one side thinks they are being taken advantage of.
I negotiate alot....and always have a well researched price, and usually offer to share that research if I think the seller is working with me.
Just going in to get as much as possible, or pay as little as possible, never seems to work well because your desperation to get the better of the other person always shows through. Always.
That's pretty much life in general, when one side thinks they are being taken advantage of.
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JwRosenthal
·Sometimes you just get irrational sellers and there's no point. About 15 years ago I was a pretty active Leica collector. The market for film cameras was falling apart and for those of us who were still dedicated to film, the world was our oyster. I walked into Central Camera in Chicago (I don't know how it looks now but back then it was a classic early 20th century photo store with large neon marquises, store packed to the ceiling with gear, dirty, busy, noisy- all the joy of old big city camera stores).
They had a fairly worn Leica M6 in the case and a nice selection of used lenses, I asked the clerk (who looked like senior staff) to look at a few pieces- he seemed bothered that I even asked. They had the M6 priced at $1.6k, which would have been a fair price had it been 1999, but the photo world had changed and these cameras were selling regularly for 800-$1k at that point.
I asked him what kind of wiggle room there was in the price, he said "we are giving these away at these prices". I asked about possibly doing a bundled price for the camera and a few lenses (this is my second attempt to allow him to work with me to make a sale). He irritatededly chuckled, shaking his head as he pulled the gear off the counter and started putting it away. He didn't even look at me and said "we won't have a problem at our price, we sell these cameras all day long".
I went back to Chicago the next year and popped back in- the same Leica M6 was still in the case- in fact it looked like not much had sold since my last visit....I didn't ask to look at anything that time- they lost any potential sale from me.
They had a fairly worn Leica M6 in the case and a nice selection of used lenses, I asked the clerk (who looked like senior staff) to look at a few pieces- he seemed bothered that I even asked. They had the M6 priced at $1.6k, which would have been a fair price had it been 1999, but the photo world had changed and these cameras were selling regularly for 800-$1k at that point.
I asked him what kind of wiggle room there was in the price, he said "we are giving these away at these prices". I asked about possibly doing a bundled price for the camera and a few lenses (this is my second attempt to allow him to work with me to make a sale). He irritatededly chuckled, shaking his head as he pulled the gear off the counter and started putting it away. He didn't even look at me and said "we won't have a problem at our price, we sell these cameras all day long".
I went back to Chicago the next year and popped back in- the same Leica M6 was still in the case- in fact it looked like not much had sold since my last visit....I didn't ask to look at anything that time- they lost any potential sale from me.
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Engee
·Sometimes you just get irrational sellers and there's no point. About 15 years ago I was a pretty active Leica collector. The market for film cameras was falling apart and for those of us who were still dedicated to film, the world was our oyster. I walked into Central Camera in Chicago (I don't know how it looks now but back then it was a classic early 20th century photo store with large neon marquises, store packed to the ceiling with gear, dirty, busy, noisy- all the joy of old big city camera stores).
They had a fairly worn Leica M6 in the case and a nice selection of used lenses, I asked the clerk (who looked like senior staff) to look at a few pieces- he seemed bothered that I even asked. They had the M6 priced at $1.6k, which would have been a fair price had it been 1999, but the photo world had changed and these cameras were selling regularly for 800-$1k at that point.
I asked him what kind of wiggle room there was in the price, he said "we are giving these away at these prices". I asked about possibly doing a bundled price for the camera and a few lenses (this is my second attempt to allow him to work with me to make a sale). He irritatededly chuckled, shaking his head as he pulled the gear off the counter and started putting it away. He didn't even look at me and said "we won't have a problem at our price, we sell these cameras all day long".
I went back to Chicago the next year and popped back in- the same Leica M6 was still in the case- in fact it looked like not much had sold since my last visit....I didn't ask to look at anything that time- they lost any potential sale from me.
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JwRosenthal
·It's hard to know what's behind such behaviour. it could be simple arrogance coupled with a failure to understand the dynamics of the market they are operating in. Alternatively, it could be that he had overpaid for the gear and was prepared to wait for a sucker who knew no better to come along. Maybe he didn't need to turn the thing into cash desperately, (although in my book that's pretty poor business - the key is to turn your cash over as quickly as possible and not let it lie locked up in inventory), but hey, what do I know? Everyone has their reasons.
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JwRosenthal
·I've seen this dissmissive and sometimes abusive tactic used before. There was a record shop here in MD that was known for rare and collectible record. The owner was known to be surly and abusive, but people seemed to brag about buying there- as if they had gotten "in" with him to be honored to buy there. I don't get it, why anyone would want to be made to feel they aren't good enough to buy from a retail store....wait.....does Rolex have a sales school?🙄
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Omegafanman
·I think it is best to try and leave ego out of it when it comes to buying and selling. It is also not all about the sales price (how safe is the payment / shipment - how reliable is the buyer, any taxes + ex-rates etc. If you are selling or buying I think anyone is free to make an offer at any level. The only thing that annoys me these days is time wasters / people that don't follow through - and of course deliberate false and fake information.
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Archer
··Omega Qualified WatchmakerIf I had not negotiated, I am pretty sure that he would still have the watch.
I understand negotiations, and how they work. The thing that puzzles me is, considering that paying full price is "nuts" as you stated. If the price is good, or even cheap, you are still going to negotiate, and try to get more off? To me, that is how you end up losing a good deal. If I'm pricing something so that it is a good deal, and someone still wants to nickel and dime me, I'm going to tell them to politely pound salt.
For me, recognizing a good deal and just paying up is fine, not in any way "nuts"...
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JwRosenthal
·Some people are in it for business, they don't mind the negotiatons typically as it's part of the job and they price with anticipation of a little wiggle- if they get asking then bully for them.
When I sell something, I price it to move. I have removed all emotion attached when I decide I no longer want in my life. Lowballers don't bother me as I know it's part of the game- I just say thanks, but no thanks and move on. If my item lingers, then I priced it too high, but I usually go by the median of the market regardless of what I have into it. I have sold cameras that I paid too much for, had it serviced, and sold it for 2/3 of what I have into it- that's just the nature of it- no emotion involved, I chose to invest the money, it doesn't make it worth more just because I threw good money after bad. The market decides what something is worth, not me.
When I sell something, I price it to move. I have removed all emotion attached when I decide I no longer want in my life. Lowballers don't bother me as I know it's part of the game- I just say thanks, but no thanks and move on. If my item lingers, then I priced it too high, but I usually go by the median of the market regardless of what I have into it. I have sold cameras that I paid too much for, had it serviced, and sold it for 2/3 of what I have into it- that's just the nature of it- no emotion involved, I chose to invest the money, it doesn't make it worth more just because I threw good money after bad. The market decides what something is worth, not me.
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Dan S
·As far as I knew, that is what being in retail is about- moving inventory. If they had wanted to be a museum, they could have applied for non-profit status and just taken the price tags off their display of tools from a dead industrial/artistic process.
It's particularly hard to understand a willingness to sit on inventory in a brick and mortar environment, with substantial monthly expenses. In the case of online watch dealers, I always suspect that some of them are probably hobbyists with good websites, and they really don't care if they move inventory. They have essentially put their collection online with "make me sell it" prices. Others are seriously looking to make sales and cycle through inventory. It's pretty easy to tell the difference if you pay attention for a few months.
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smitty190373
·For me, recognizing a good deal and just paying up is fine, not in any way "nuts"...
'Recognizing', aka research, is key to this thread.
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lindo
·For me, recognizing a good deal and just paying up is fine, not in any way "nuts"...
Of course. And I have done that on many occasions.
What I am trying to convey, apparently very clumsily, is that there are circumstances where not negotiating is foolish. For example, if you decide you want a new Omega, would you go to an AD and hand over the full price without first asking whether they can offer you a better price? I bought two last year and was a bit stunned at how readily the AD took off 15% in one case and 20% in the other - but I had to ask first. So my advice to new collectors is to make sure you ask. (Of course none of this applies to Rolex).
Taking an example from the used watch arena: if you see something you would like but the price is higher than you believe is justified, do you just walk away shaking your head, or do you explore whether the vendor is open to a reasonable offer. My view is that walking away is foolish, for the vendor may be happy to accept your offer. So again, my advice to new collectors is to make sure you ask.
How you ask is the issue. Low ball offers are just insulting. An offer which you can base on some comparison figures which are easily gained from the net (eBay sold data, OF searches, etc) is more likely to be persuasive to a vendor, especially if you maintain a courteous and respectful attitude.
None of this is news to old collectors - it is aimed at those who are uncomfortable with the idea of negotiation.
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speedyproftw
·What was I thinking paying $800 for this!
If I hunted around I could have found another for $600, maybe haggled the seller down to $750, stupid me for paying top of market value at the time.
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speedyproftw
·Anyone who has sold more than a few watches gets asked some version of "What is the lowest you are willing to go?" I just answer with "What is the most you are willing to pay?" For some reason, no prospective buyer has ever decided to tell me that number 👎
