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The Great Race watch

Seiji Lépine
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thegreatrace1965.76918.jpg

upload_2022-12-29_8-30-44.png


This ad was apparently available in 1919, which surprised me a bit as I would have thought that Europe would still be in a period of recovery from the Great War. But as the ad implies, there was a need for a watch to support the Great Races that must have been occurring at the time.

The 1919 Grand Prix season was the first season following the armistice that ended World War I in November 1918. European economies were struggling, and many automotive firms had to recover and retool from military production. So, there was very little racing activity as it took time for the companies and populations to recover. As the world rebuilt there were only two major races held in the year - the Indianapolis 500 and the Targa Florio.

Major Races[edit]
Sources:[1][2][3][4][5]

Date Name Circuit Race
Regulations Race
Distance Winner's
Time Winning driver Winning

31 May VII Indianapolis 500 Indianapolis AAA 500 miles 5h 41m Howdy Wilcox Peugeot EX-5
23 Nov X Targa Florio Medio Madonie Targa Florio 430 km 7h 51m André Boillot Peugeot L-25
89BAD743-F8B6-4262-A870-D218C79DAECF.jpeg F32BF1CE-124C-4DC2-9A30-BDEC6F168D88.jpeg 9C24C636-83CB-4363-892A-13AFE580EFE3.jpeg 5D54AF97-5BDB-4747-8A4F-4EC73749D3CC.jpeg 2D881DFD-ACE2-4FD8-B9D6-A98022B1AC91.jpeg 2A33F7A3-C888-473E-B6DB-0BC91EA91AFA.jpeg A90D7953-EAAD-4C7C-A8EA-A6048A86069A.jpeg 28E901E1-E47E-49AB-A434-E3E6594A19E7.jpeg
Edited:
 
upload_2022-12-29_8-30-44.png 89BAD743-F8B6-4262-A870-D218C79DAECF.jpeg F32BF1CE-124C-4DC2-9A30-BDEC6F168D88.jpeg 9C24C636-83CB-4363-892A-13AFE580EFE3.jpeg 5D54AF97-5BDB-4747-8A4F-4EC73749D3CC.jpeg A90D7953-EAAD-4C7C-A8EA-A6048A86069A.jpeg 28E901E1-E47E-49AB-A434-E3E6594A19E7.jpeg 2D881DFD-ACE2-4FD8-B9D6-A98022B1AC91.jpeg 2A33F7A3-C888-473E-B6DB-0BC91EA91AFA.jpeg
Seiji Lépine
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Sorry about posting twice, but I thought this might be a fun watch for some discussions. I think the ads have been seen before, but no one has discussed the 1919 races or races after the Great War and I wanted to add to the historical thread even though I don't know who the two rally watches belonged to. Now that it is clear what they were
designed for, it could explain why these double faced Longines chronographs are so rare.
 
noelekal
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I appreciate your thread so much!

I am always enthused about historical context when enjoying whatever it is that I am collecting.
 
X350 XJR
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Just another example of why I love this place, I always learn something new!

Thanks for sharing.

BTW - I always rooted for Jack Lemmon!
 
Seiji Lépine
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X350 XJR X350 XJR
Just another example of why I love this place, I always learn something new!

Thanks for sharing.

BTW - I always rooted for Jack Lemmon!

The Professor Won! Ah, but Leslie threw the race 😀
 
Pianotuna
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Great watches. I’ve always thought one needed an engineering degree to know how and what everything measured on those dial faces. And I own a couple of 1930/40 Pierce chronographs so I have an idea on the four main measurements but anything else is beyond me.

The winning Peugeots of 1919 were of course pre-war race cars. The 4.5 litre is one of the greatest of all racing cars (along with its contemporary stablemate the 3.0 litre) a conceptual leader on the principles of less weight, more revs, more horsepower which continues more or less to this day. Note that the competitors were the likes of eight, 12 and even 14 litres, many of them former aero engines.

I recommend Rex Hay’s ‘The Vanishing Litres’ for those interested in the first 50 years of Grand Prix racing. (Not an easy find but a great read).
 
Syrte
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Hi Seiji, beautiful watches and great advertisement. Also an interesting thread. Here’s my thought about it in general, it’s based on the fact that 1930s Longines advertisement also emphasized sports, sportswomen and sportsmen as prospective buyers.
My interpretation is that watches were expensive goods, and so manufactures couldn’t rely on just the ordinary folk to buy their wares, they had to cater to the people with disposable income.

Just like today, I have to suspect those people were more immune to economic hard times than the average person, and that would explain why a manufacture would target this particular segment of the population despite the continent being just scarred by war.
If you watch Dowton Abbey you will see what I mean!
All best,
S
 
Seiji Lépine
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It is funny that I had seen the advert a few times, but until someone recently started asking about it and the watches, I had not connected the two together. Afterwards it was clear that the unusual design of the watches was because Longines was creating a watch to provide a very precise but longer duration recorder. And the front of the watch gave the kilometers per hour, so it all made sense that these were watches for either rallys or lap races. i don't think this has been mentioned anywhere before, so I am excited about finally understanding the reason for the crazy complication. There are a few variations of this watch. You can see that the watch did evolve a bit between versions. The meansuring scale grew longer from the version shown in Patrick Linder's book to the two tone one I have and finally the very simple black and white front dial one I have. The watch basically is designed to calculate average speed of the vehicle.

Is there definitive information on the date of the advertisement? Frank told me his copy (original paper) is from 1919.
Edited:
 
w154
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How would you use the km/h function in a race setting, unless (for example) one lap of the circuit was exactly 1km. It seems like it’s really only usable for Vmax runs over a fixed kilometre, or something similar. Of course you could figure out two points that are precisely 1km apart on a specific circuit or rally route, but then you’d only know the average speed of that specific 1km section which wouldn’t necessarily be very helpful.

I guess the purpose of the longer scale is to allow for a greater range of applications. Motor racing on the first rotation, perhaps equestrian/cycling for the middle rotations, and then perhaps running for the last marked rotation.
 
Seiji Lépine
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w154 w154
How would you use the km/h function in a race setting, unless (for example) one lap of the circuit was exactly 1km. It seems like it’s really only usable for Vmax runs over a fixed kilometre, or something similar. Of course you could figure out two points that are precisely 1km apart on a specific circuit or rally route, but then you’d only know the average speed of that specific 1km section which wouldn’t necessarily be very helpful.

I guess the purpose of the longer scale is to allow for a greater range of applications. Motor racing on the first rotation, perhaps equestrian/cycling for the middle rotations, and then perhaps running for the last marked rotation.


Good question, I myself do not really know. I assume that the watch can measure more precisely the velocity down to slower moving vehicles / person (12 Km/h or down to 2 Km/h) ?
 
Seiji Lépine
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This is undoubtedly the rarest double faced 19.73 chronograph I have ever seen.
Curious about the reason experimental Bugatti aircraft is mentioned in the notes.

upload_2023-1-4_10-58-33.png
 
Pianotuna
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w154 w154
How would you use the km/h function in a race setting, unless (for example) one lap of the circuit was exactly 1km. It seems like it’s really only usable for Vmax runs over a fixed kilometre, or something similar. Of course you could figure out two points that are precisely 1km apart on a specific circuit or rally route, but then you’d only know the average speed of that specific 1km section which wouldn’t necessarily be very helpful.

I guess the purpose of the longer scale is to allow for a greater range of applications. Motor racing on the first rotation, perhaps equestrian/cycling for the middle rotations, and then perhaps running for the last marked rotation.
One of those questions for the designers of the watch perhaps. I’ve always been curious how one might ‘time’ an aircraft over one km or mile without any frame of reference for what the mile might be, and given the speed range indicated on tachymetres aircraft might reasonably be the only thing one would be timing.

The answer in part might be the era in which these dials originally proliferated. From the moment in 1899 when Jenatzy set a world record of 65 mph in his electric car man has been obsessed with faster, further, higher. The 1920’s epitomised the ‘challenge’ era with the likes of Cobb and Campbell in cars, Oppermann on a bicycle extending to Lindbergh and Kingsford-Smiths’ conquests of the Atlantic and Pacific respectively. The Schneider Trophy races are another example. Just my 2c.

Love your avatar and sign-in btw. The 154 was one of the greatest of racing cars.
 
w154
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Seiji Lépine Seiji
This is undoubtedly the rarest double faced 19.73 chronograph I have ever seen.
Curious about the reason experimental Bugatti aircraft is mentioned in the notes.

upload_2023-1-4_10-58-33.png

I read the extract differently. I think when they talk about the Bugatti they’re trying to make the point that contemporary road going cars couldn’t achieve the speeds on the fastest scale. The type 41 from the late twenties could only achieve something around the 160km/h range, so they’re hypothesising that it must have been designed with scientific experimentation and/or aviation in mind. Having said that, speeds over 400 km/h we’re being achieved by cars in the 1930s.
 
w154
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Pianotuna Pianotuna
Love your avatar and sign-in btw. The 154 was one of the greatest of racing cars.

Thanks ! It was definitely the Golden (or should I say “Silver”) age from a design and engineering standpoint.
 
Pianotuna
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w154 w154
I read the extract differently. I think when they talk about the Bugatti they’re trying to make the point that contemporary road going cars couldn’t achieve the speeds on the fastest scale. The type 41 from the late twenties could only achieve something around the 160km/h range, so they’re hypothesising that it must have been designed with scientific experimentation and/or aviation in mind. Having said that, speeds over 400 km/h we’re being achieved by cars in the 1930s.
I think relying on the extract for information about cars is the problem here. The writer might know something about watches and not a lot about contemporary automobiles.
 
Pianotuna
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w154 w154
Thanks ! It was definitely the Golden (or should I say “Silver”) age from a design and engineering standpoint.
I saw and heard one live when flown out to Australia for an historic racing event at Melbourne’s Sandown track in 1982. Even though MB stalwart Stirling Moss was there Jack Brabham was the driver and the sound of that straight-8 being given a proper serve around the course was memorable, even 40 years on. One of the most beautiful race cars ever, alongside the 250F and the 58 Vanwall
 
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