Speedy Tuesday – A Blue Dial Speedmaster 105.003 On Auction

Archer · Nov 13, 2018

Spacefruit
You have no conception the pressure that those in trade will bring to bear on those in academia, and how ill prepared the academics are for the attention of these (at times) Machiavellian traders who realize that putting in a bit of pressure will transform their profit.

The only reason the "Machiavellian traders" would think putting pressure on could improve their fortunes is if they know doing so actually works to get an extract changed somehow in their favour. The easy solution to that is not do what they are asking the archive staff to do. Once people realize they can't pressure people into such changes, the pressure should naturally recede.

The fact that there is "pressure" is in no way an explanation for the things people are questioning, and giving in to that pressure raises more questions than it answers. How is the Omega archive or the people who run it benefitting with the relationship with these "Machiavellian traders" and auctions houses? Is there some kind of quid pro quo going on here that the rest of us are not aware of? If so, that makes the whole thing even more shady in my view.

I don't think anyone is out to crucify the people at Omega who make these extracts, but legitimate questions have been raised about the validity of the process, and if pressure is coming from anywhere it should be the collectors here that rely on those extracts. There are some here who have extraordinary access to these people and could raise these concerns with them, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of appetite for that from what I've seen.

Too bad there really isn't any proper watch journalism, because this is the kind of thing a proper investigative journalist could dig into, but since everyone currently involved seems to have something to loose, answers will not be forthcoming I expect.

mr_yossarian · Nov 13, 2018

Archer
Is there some kind of quid pro quo going on here that the rest of us are not aware of? If so, that makes the whole thing even more shady in my view.

In general, I raised a question in the similar direction when recently a discussion about a certain Ultraman took place, but I would rather ask myself, what is likely: I don't believe Omega as Company would conduct business this way, why would they, what is the benefit, use, gratification besides the risk to get severly burned?
I think a more rational aproach is: one should ask concerned if this "quid pro quo" isn't something that - way more likely - takes place due to..let's call it individual failure within a Organization..from there on, it's easier to understand why some are more equal than others when it comes to these things, Extracts.

To translate it to this case here: why would Omega call into question what they did for years, leading the whole EOA concept ad absurdum?

Archer · Nov 13, 2018

mr_yossarian
In general, I raised a question in the similar direction when recently a discussion about a certain Ultraman took place, but I would rather ask myself, what is likely: I don't believe Omega as Company would conduct business this way, why would they, what is the benefit, use, gratification besides the risk to get severly burned?
I think a more rational aproach is: one should ask concerned if this "quid pro quo" isn't something that - way more likely - takes place due to..let's call it individual failure within a Organization..from there on, it's easier to understand why some are more equal than others when it comes to these things, Extracts.

To translate it to this case here: why would Omega call into question what they did for years, leading the whole EOA concept ad absurdum?

I am not ruling out anything, because I'm not one of those "in the loop" you could say. Maybe those who do have a "conception the pressure that those in trade will bring to bear on those in academia" can elaborate on just what that pressure is and how it's applied in this case?

Guiguit · Nov 13, 2018

Rare pieces are… rare!! And business needs too grow continuously. When the source gets dry, creativity comes in, and sometimes dishonesty.
That's sad for an auction house which built it last few years success on nice watches. No good for their reputation!!

DLT222 · Nov 13, 2018

Guiguit
Rare pieces are… rare!! And business needs too grow continuously. When the source gets dry, creativity comes in, and sometimes dishonesty.
That's sad for an auction house which built it last few years success on nice watches. No good for their reputation!!

Your right..

Rare pieces are rare... and don’t need fake papers and replacement bezel and hand non-disclosure.

At least state bezel, crystal and chrono hand have been replaced. It would be far better to be honest than get caught out like what’s happened here with a side of BS to boot!

BenBagbag · Nov 13, 2018

DLT222
Your right..

Rare pieces are rare... and don’t need fake papers and replacement bezel and hand non-disclosure.

At least state bezel, crystal and chrono hand have been replaced. It would be far better to be honest than get caught out like what’s happened here with a side of BS to boot!

I really agree with most of the sentiments you've shared thus far, but it's not so realistic to expect Philips to know the service history of the watch. The owner who consigned this piece should have disclosed what work was done, or maybe not even. How many people buy a 321 assuming there has been no work done to it? This piece showed scars and wasn't advertised as factory original (forged papers aside). There is only so much an Auction house can do when dealing with watches I'd imagine. Perhaps the bar for accepting a watch, or vetting that watch, should be higher when watches are estimated to be worth a certain amount, say $50,000. Maybe watches above $50k should have proof of documented ownership for at least 5-10 years? Not sure...

Is there an equivalence with art? How responsible are auction houses to ensure that the piece has not had any work done. What if a painting's frame was swapped with another period correct frame that very well could have been on there to begin with?

There is a reason that people seek out that "one-owner" watch. I think tolerances for swapped parts are lower when prices are higher. When these watches were just worth a few thousand people asked a lot fewer questions.

DLT222 · Nov 13, 2018

Unfortunately some of us know more information than we can disclose.

How do you know if the owner changed the parts? We don’t! It’s not the first time that an auction house will pull the wool over our eyes and feed us the BS. I just wish Mr Newman was alive to authenticate that Daytona!

For $17m I would want more than a link to a tree house!

Archer · Nov 13, 2018

BenBagbag
Is there an equivalence with art? How responsible are auction houses to ensure that the piece has not had any work done. What if a painting's frame was swapped with another period correct frame that very well could have been on there to begin with?

I highly recommend that anyone who can, should watch this film:

http://www.thepriceofeverything.com/

It's about values in the art industry, and it touches on some themes in play in some of the recent threads here. I can't remember the exact quote one person made in the film, but it was near the end and the sentiment was that nothing about the way the art world and the auction business that surrounds it is likely the change, because far too many people have an interest in keeping it the same.

I get the same feeling with the watch world right now.

mr_yossarian · Nov 13, 2018

Besides wondering about what Auction Houses ( aka Companies) do - or rather not do - to maximize profits..they reflect quite common ideas while doing it, they could as well sell bad food, bad clothing, foul papers or ruin the environment or people in the attempt to do so. All in all they seem to have adopted a certain logic of capitalism that is free of responsibility ( concerning own behaviours), ethics or aesthetics or anything else a human should normally try to maintain, achive..whatever.
Without being pathetic, the consequence for me is to trust them as I trust Nestle and go buy or sell to and from people who have a different attitude.
And I can tell you, the damage they are doing to themself is not as easy to measure as return of their investment..and far more terrifying than they think. Not only in the long term.
Let them carry on until they burned themselfs.

arcadelt · Nov 13, 2018

DLT222
Unfortunately some of us know more information than we can disclose.

Why? What’s tying your hands?

DLT222 · Nov 13, 2018

arcadelt
Why? What’s tying your hands?

Respect for other parties that do not want information disclosed.

Speedy Tuesday – A Blue Dial Speedmaster 105.003 On Auction

Archer

mr_yossarian

Archer

Guiguit

DLT222

BenBagbag

DLT222

Archer

mr_yossarian

arcadelt

DLT222

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