Speedy 2998-5 radium or tritium lume?

Hans the Wolf · Aug 17, 2021

Hi guys,

I have been offered to buy a very nice 2998-5 that comes with a 7912/12 bracelet but I am a little concerned about that radium might be the lume used for the dial and the hands 😒

As far as I know Omega started to use tritium instead of radium in 1962 and I also know that the "T SWISS MADE T" marking was not used until mid 1964, all this according to Moonwatch Only. MWO also says that radium was used for dials made in 1961/1962. As the 2998-5 was produced in 1962, could it be so that some of the early ones had radium dials instead of tritium? I think that MWO is a bit unclear about this as they on their site says:
"The last sub-reference for which we measured radium on a Geiger counter was 2998-4"
See this page: https://www.watchbooksonly.com/articles/watch-reviews/speedmasters-dials/
In the book (3rd edition, chapter 2/4, page 78) they put it in another way:
"The last sub-reference that registered on a Geiger counter was 2998-4"
Should I interpret both the site and the book as that radium was not used at all for 2998-5 or that MWO could not find one with a radium dial ( I am 100% sure that they couldn't have measured all the 2998-5s that still exists 😀)?

I have asked the owner if he has measured the dial with a Geiger counter but he has not and he also doesn't know anyone who has one. Is there any way that one can see that radium or tritium is used by just observing the dial?

Cheers,
Hans

Sherbie · Aug 17, 2021

Pictures would help us all

Hans the Wolf · Aug 17, 2021

Sherbie
Pictures would help us all

Sorry, of course a picture will help

eugeneandresson · Aug 17, 2021

That looks like tritium to me (but it could be canary yellow radium…although can’t say I have seen that, then again I have not seen everything)…especially the shrinkage on some of the plots (which looks correct for that period).

Also, we have seen 2998-6s with radium dials. There is no hard and fast rules…

Sherbie · Aug 17, 2021

Have you compared vs Speedmaster101 reference section?

http://speedmaster101.wpengine.com/2998-3/

Seaborg · Aug 17, 2021

Mine is radium.

ndgal · Aug 17, 2021

@Hans the Wolf 2998-5 is/should be Radium.
Don't believe all that you read in books, the info might not always be 100% correct.
Judging by the service subdial hands on the watch in question I would say it is safe to say it was factory serviced sometime during the 70's and the dial + H/M/C hands were relumed (Yes, Omega used to do that).

Hans the Wolf · Aug 17, 2021

Thank you all for your answers to my question, much appreciated 😀 My first intention was to as ask a general question about the lume used for 2998-5 but I understand that I put it in a way that actually asked for an assessment of the actual watch I have been offered.

@Sherbie - Yes, I have compared the watch with the speedmaster101.com section for 2998s. The sub-section there for 2998-5 does not say anything about if tritium and/or radium was used as lume. The picture of the 2998-5 shows a dial that is very aged and very different from "mine".

@Seaborg - Beautiful lume on your dial 😀 That is the way I thought radium should look like, more brownish than looking yellowish.

@eugeneandresson @ndgal - Well, I must admit that I was under the impression from what I have read that in MWO that Omega stopped using tritium 1962. When I think about it, it is of course so that dials made earlier with radium lume could very well be used after tritium replaced radium. I guess Omega took the dials/hands they had in place when assembling a watch.

@ndgal - About the subdial hands, how can one see that they are replacement hands? I thought that all the subdial hands should look the same when the alpha ones where replaced by the baton ones. How can one tell that they are replacement ones?

ndgal · Aug 18, 2021

Hans the Wolf
@ndgal - About the subdial hands, how can one see that they are replacement hands? I thought that all the subdial hands should look the same when the alpha ones where replaced by the baton ones. How can one tell that they are replacement ones?

Look closely at the tips of the subdial hands and compare them to the ones in @Seaborg ’s image.
You’ll notice the service hand tips are not as pointy as the original ones.

Hans the Wolf · Aug 18, 2021

ndgal
Look closely at the tips of the subdial hands and compare them to the ones in @Seaborg ’s image.
You’ll notice the service hand tips are not as pointy as the original ones.

Yes, you are correct, took a look in MWO. The ones used starting with "C2. Baton - Flat" (the MWO name) are less pointy than the ones used earlier. "B5. Alpha - Drop" are the hands for the watch we are discussing and they sure are more pointy. Thanks for sharing this knowledge with me 😀 I thought that all subdials hands that replaced the alpha ones were all the same. Ok, replacement subdial hands don't bother me that much but if the H/M/C hands and the indices are relumed I am bothered...

watchyouwant · Aug 18, 2021

Hans the Wolf
Yes, you are correct, took a look in MWO. The ones used starting with "C2. Baton - Flat" (the MWO name) are less pointy than the ones used earlier. "B5. Alpha - Drop" are the hands for the watch we are discussing and they sure are more pointy. Thanks for sharing this knowledge with me 😀 I thought that all subdials hands that replaced the alpha ones were all the same. Ok, replacement subdial hands don't bother me that much but if the H/M/C hands and the indices are relumed I am bothered...

Marker 4+5+6 show a "non - steady - hand" relume effort..... So , ....... And get a better close up from the hour hand as well. Should not be flat as the modern replacement hands. But slightly curved in itself.

Hans the Wolf · Aug 18, 2021

I have been talking to the owner and have given him the URL to this thread. He has seen your comments and has asked me to post the following pictures. The first two are giving a better view of the hands and the dial and the third one shows the movement (the last four digits of the serial number has been masked by me):

He also asked me to write that he claims that the watch is untouched and that it is completely in original condition and absolutely correct for the reference 2998-5.

watchyouwant · Aug 18, 2021

Hand question answered with pics. Hand is ok. Lume question not answered with extra pics.

Hans the Wolf · Aug 19, 2021

I think that it is time to end this thread. My intention when I started it was not to get help assessing the watch I have been offered. What I wanted was to have some answers/thoughts about this:

1. Was both radium and tritium used as the lume for 2998-5?
2. Without using a Geiger counter, can one by just optical examining the dial/hands see if the lume is radium or tritium?

I have came to the following conclusions:

No 1: Even if Omega started to use tritium as the lume for new dials/hands in 1962 (if MWO is correct about that), it was not uncommon to use already made radium dials/hands when assembling new watches for a couple of years. So the answer to the question is YES.

No 2: As there were dials with tritium produced between 1962 (when Omega started to use tritium) and 1964 only marked "SWISS MADE", it is almost impossible to be 100% sure what the lume is just by looking at it. So the answer to this question is NO.

As a side effect, I now know that there is a subtle difference between the baton subdial hands that replaced the alpha ones. The tip is less pointy in the ones that comes with the set of hands having a flat end for the chrono-dial.

Well, thank you all for your input, I hope my conclusions are as correct as they can be

Cheers,
Hans

watchyouwant · Aug 19, 2021

Hans the Wolf
I think that it is time to end this thread. My intention when I started it was not to get help assessing the watch I have been offered. What I wanted was to have some answers/thoughts about this:

1. Was both radium and tritium used as the lume for 2998-5?
2. Without using a Geiger counter, can one by just optical examining the dial/hands see if the lume is radium or tritium?

I have came to the following conclusions:

No 1: Even if Omega started to use tritium as the lume for new dials/hands in 1962 (if MWO is correct about that), it was not uncommon to use already made radium dials/hands when assembling new watches for a couple of years. So the answer to the question is YES.

No 2: As there were dials with tritium produced between 1962 (when Omega started to use tritium) and 1964 only marked "SWISS MADE", it is almost impossible to be 100% sure what the lume is just by looking at it. So the answer to this question is NO.

As a side effect, I now know that there is a subtle difference between the baton subdial hands that replaced the alpha ones. The tip is less pointy in the ones that comes with the set of hands having a flat end for the chrono-dial.

Well, thank you all for your input, I hope my conclusions are as correct as they can be

Cheers,
Hans

Both of your conclusions are not correct. Reason 1): tritium and radium age very differently. You can have an educated guess just looking at the aged lume colour. The Geiger test confirms one way or the other. And with the amount of money, you are about to spend, the Geiger is really cheap. $100 get you an second hand, but good one. Reason 2): it depends , where your speedmaster was delivered to. A $120 EoA from the factory will tell you that. Omega, like Rolex and a few other swiss companies, did not like to throw away existing NOS dials because the laws had changed. They used up as many as they could. But : they did not deliver watches with these dials to countries, where the breach of the changed rules resulted in the highest fines. Look up the USA lawsuit against Rolex for the GMT bezels with radium numerals. That was a hefty fine for the time..... So, Radium dials were delivered to orders from Africa, Asia, Australia, South America. Arabia. Not Europe. Not the USA. Not Canada. That is documented extensively in the old posts at the vintage Rolex Forum for example. You have to find it, if interested. I read them all and discussed with other collectors. But did not bookmarked them. So, both conclusions of yours are not 100% right and not 100% wrong. It depends...... Kind regards. Achim

Hans the Wolf · Aug 19, 2021

watchyouwant
Both of your conclusions are not correct. Reason 1): tritium and radium age very differently. You can have an educated guess just looking at the aged lume colour. The Geiger test confirms one way or the other. And with the amount of money, you are about to spend, the Geiger is really cheap. $100 get you an second hand, but good one. Reason 2): it depends , where your speedmaster was delivered to. A $120 EoA from the factory will tell you that. Omega, like Rolex and a few other swiss companies, did not like to throw away existing NOS dials because the laws had changed. They used up as many as they could. But : they did not deliver watches with these dials to countries, where the breach of the changed rules resulted in the highest fines. Look up the USA lawsuit against Rolex for the GMT bezels with radium numerals. That was a hefty fine for the time..... So, Radium dials were delivered to orders from Africa, Asia, Australia, South America. Arabia. Not Europe. Not the USA. Not Canada. That is documented extensively in the old posts at the vintage Rolex Forum for example. You have to find it, if interested. I read them all and discussed with other collectors. But did not bookmarked them. So, both conclusions of yours are not 100% right and not 100% wrong. It depends...... Kind regards. Achim

Well, I didn't succeed in closing the thread as I hoped

I must say that I don't quite follow you...

My first conclusion is that both radium and tritium dial/hands were used for reference 2998-5, which is 100% correct.

I agree with you that my second conclusion might not be totally correct. But I am writing "almost impossible" and I still think that you cannot be 100% sure if a dial is radium or not if it was made after Omega started to use tritium, by just looking at it and it is not marked "T SWISS MADE T" (I find it very hard to believe that Omega shipped watches lured with radium with that marking). Of course there are dials where you can be very sure that radium is the lume, like the one @Seaborg showed us earlier in this thread. Even to my untrained eye it looks very much the way I expect aged radium lume should look

Well, it might be my bad English that makes it hard for me to clearly express my thoughts. My spoken language is not English so I am perfectly aware of the fact that I might not express myself correctly

Cheers,
Hans

Hans the Wolf · Aug 19, 2021

Hans the Wolf
Well, I didn't succeed in closing the thread as I hoped

I must say that I don't quite follow you...

My first conclusion is that both radium and tritium dial/hands were used for reference 2998-5, which is 100% correct.

I agree with you that my second conclusion might not be totally correct. But I am writing "almost impossible" and I still think that you cannot be 100% sure if a dial is radium or not if it was made after Omega started to use tritium, by just looking at it and it is not marked "T SWISS MADE T" (I find it very hard to believe that Omega shipped watches lured with radium with that marking). Of course there are dials where you can be very sure that radium is the lume, like the one @Seaborg showed us earlier in this thread. Even to my untrained eye it looks very much the way I expect aged radium lume should look

Well, it might be my bad English that makes it hard for me to clearly express my thoughts. My spoken language is not English so I am perfectly aware of the fact that I might not express myself correctly

Cheers,
Hans

Damned, all the smileys I used disappeared from the text 🙁 My post is not as harsh as it seems to be wench the smileys are not there 😀 You see, I picked the smileys from my Mac and not from the site

Speedy 2998-5 radium or tritium lume?

Hans the Wolf

Sherbie

Hans the Wolf

eugeneandresson

Sherbie

Seaborg

ndgal

Hans the Wolf

ndgal

Hans the Wolf

watchyouwant

Hans the Wolf

watchyouwant

Hans the Wolf

watchyouwant

Hans the Wolf

Hans the Wolf

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