Speedy 105.012-66 Centrale Boîtes case?

LawBrk · Sep 29, 2015

I've come across what has been described to me as a 105.012-66. The case back shows the maker CB and I would thus assume that it should have the facet edge on the lugs. This is my first foray into vintage Speedies and while comparing to SpaceFruits site I cannot decide whether if the facet is present or if the case has been changed or if it is no longer as obvious due to polishing. Any opinions or photos of yours for further comparison would be appreciated!

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JohnSteed · Sep 29, 2015

To compare

LawBrk · Sep 29, 2015

Thanks for the reference @JohnSteed. It appears to me that the lugs are not the same. Could this mean a replacement caseback or is a replaced case more likely? Hmmmm.....😒

JohnSteed · Sep 29, 2015

Well, one possibility I can venture, is heavy polishing,

marturx · Sep 30, 2015

OP's watch is not a CB case. I think @greekbum should be interested in this one, since he has a CB case with an HF-lid.

NB, you need to see the caseprofile too, to be really sure

Davidt · Sep 30, 2015

Yes it helps to see a side view as the CB cases have a slightly different profile, tapering to a thinner edge. Of course this might've changed if the case has had a good old polish.

naidu · Sep 30, 2015

Another possibility to distinguish a CB case is to see if the lugs have a flat on the rear side.
On my CB :

dennisthemenace · Sep 30, 2015

Here's what a CB case should look like.

naidu · Sep 30, 2015

dennisthemenace
Here's what a CB case should look like.

Nice "220 bezel" !!

LawBrk · Sep 30, 2015

Some shots of the profile and lug backs.

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Davidt · Sep 30, 2015

Yup. That looks like an HF case to me.

I don't think an extract would help you either as a '66 could be CB or HF.

LawBrk · Sep 30, 2015

Well that is good to know heading into talking about price. As I look (at work, shhhhh) other HF cases shown on OF do seem to match up with this one. The movement picture provided to me was not clear enough to show serial# perhaps that will shed further light.

Would this type of change happen during a "service" by Omega? Or is it more likely that the case back is a replacement.

bazamu · Sep 30, 2015

The serial won't necessarily help because (as I understand it) the HF and CB cases were produced simultaneously in '66. No telling where the CB caseback came from.

TNTwatch · Sep 30, 2015

There are so many of the CB cases with non-flat top lugs around, I've seen more than half a dozen of them sold in the last year. None of them showed obvious signs of polishing or case rework. It's hard to know without the full history or concrete evidence.

There're some theories: 1. The case manufacturer made the change themselves after finding out the flat-top lugs were an error, so CB made both types. I've found no reason this could not be true. 2. Case back or case middle was swapped due to loss or damages to the case or back. I see no financial gain here. 3. Put together from parts.

Davidt · Sep 30, 2015

I don't think this particular mid-case is even a polished CB case though. The sides on CB cases have a very thin profile, which looks different to the HF cases.

As Naidu mentioned above, CB cases also have the little flat section on the reverse of the lugs which this doesn't have.

I wouldn't completely rule out CB realising their cases were different and removing the vertical facet on the front direct from the factory, but I'd be very surprised if this happened. Even if they did change the polishing for the front of the lugs in the factory I'd be even more surprised if they went to the effort of changing the cut on the rear of the lugs and the sides of the case.

I think it's certainly most likely that all CB cases had these extra facets and they have since been lost through polishing. In the case of the OPs watch, I simply think it's an HF mid case.

TNTwatch · Sep 30, 2015

Davidt3449
I wouldn't completely rule out CB realising their cases were different and removing the vertical facet on the front direct from the factory, but I'd be very surprised if this happened. Even if they did change the polishing for the front of the lugs in the factory I'd be even more surprised if they went to the effort of changing the cut on the rear of the lugs and the sides of the case.

They could have changed the molding for the whole mid case (assuming it's a one piece case). I believe it has happened before with both CB and HF made cases for the stainless steel dog-leg Constellation 168.005 with slightly different lugs profiles.

Davidt3449
The sides on CB cases have a very thin profile, which looks different to the HF cases.

Davidt3449
I think it's certainly most likely that all CB cases had these extra facets and they have since been lost through polishing. In the case of the OPs watch, I simply think it's an HF mid case.

Here I think you just assume that all the 66 CB cases are the same. Do you have a source or documentation to say there was no variation at all?

Davidt · Sep 30, 2015

[QUOTE="TNTwatch, post: 334799, member: 4314" Do you have a source or documentation to say there was no variation at all?[/QUOTE]

No not at all.

Like I say, in the absence of any proof, Im not claiming what I'm saying is absolutely correct. In my opinion, this is however the most likely scenario. Had there been a second type of CB case, without facets, I think MWO would have uncovered some evidence as well.

It would however be interesting to see examples of members CB cases to confirm or deny the point about the back of the lugs and the sides of the case. Especially anyone who has a CB case without visibly facets on the front of the lugs.

Spacefruit · Sep 30, 2015

Who says that Omega kept cases and backs together during production?
I dont know enough about watch production.

Why not a whole box sitting at the end of the line, just being fitted.

I did speak to a watchmaker who would service speedmasters in the 1970's in London - he would service them as a group and not be too fussy about which back went on which. Not the kind of work I would want but he used the Saville defence. (everyone was doing it)

TNTwatch · Sep 30, 2015

Davidt3449
No not at all.

Like I say, in the absence of any proof, Im not claiming what I'm saying is absolutely correct. In my opinion, this is however the most likely scenario. Had there been a second type of CB case, without facets, I think MWO would have uncovered some evidence as well.

It's entirely possible that MWO hasn't covered all the variants yet, like those blue/grey dials with wide chapter ring/markers and some service dials.

It would however be interesting to see examples of members CB cases to confirm or deny the point about the back of the lugs and the sides of the case. Especially anyone who has a CB case without visibly facets on the front of the lugs.

Spacefruit had some CB cases without the flat-top lugs before he obtained one with last year. Not sure if they've been polished or what though.

Davidt · Sep 30, 2015

Spacefruit
I did speak to a watchmaker who would service speedmasters in the 1970's in London - he would service them as a group and not be too fussy about which back went on which. Not the kind of work I would want but he used the Saville defence. (everyone was doing it)

Which is what I think's most likely to have happened to the OPs watch.

I agree that its hard to know if Omega kept case backs and mid cases together during assembly. I'd always go with what the evidence suggests though. With these CB case backs, almost all have the mid case with the faceted lugs at the front, the thin profile on the side, and the facets on the back of the lugs.

Those CB backed examples without facets, or wide case sides are certainly the exception rather than the rule.

Don't get me wrong, it'd be great to find out that there's another little variant within 60's Speedmasters. I just think all the evidence suggests there was only type of CB case.

Speedy 105.012-66 Centrale Boîtes case?

LawBrk

JohnSteed

LawBrk

JohnSteed

marturx

Davidt

naidu

dennisthemenace

naidu

LawBrk

Davidt

LawBrk

bazamu

TNTwatch

Davidt

TNTwatch

Davidt

Spacefruit

TNTwatch

Davidt

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