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Speedmaster Hesalite Sandwich - clone claim

diggin5
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Hey everyone! I'm a Speedy and Seamaster collector and this one has me stumped. I'm being told by an authorized Omega service shop that this ref. 3572.50 "Hesalite Sandwich" cal. 1863 Speedmaster is a clone. The serial number I believe dates it to 1999, and for some reason is not in Omega's database (I double checked with the Boutique). I'm told this happens from time to time with older authentic watches, but is rare and the first red flag. The AD's shop also said that the watch has some innacuracies for an authentic watch, compared to the current issued Speedmasters. I don't have a list from them but they mentioned the caseback writing is missing the word "The" and the case thickness looks different.

I own several new and vintage Speedmasters, I've sold several brand new and lightly used Speedies for years. I purchased this one from a reputable dealer, and he is just as shocked as I am. He has offered a full refund if I get documentation that it is not authentic, but we're both extremely surprised. If it's a clone, it's the best I've seen or heard of. Any thoughts?

(Apologies for the smudged photos. Will be taking more photos once I get the watch back from the shop.)

20200921_130254.jpg 20200921_130237.jpg
 
Meme-Dweller
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Movement looks genuine. Caseback isn't missing a "The". I doubt it's a fake. Anyway, why is the inside of your pusher green?
 
Nathan1967
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E316713D-013E-40F0-B539-57DF76210866.jpeg C2B4127F-8304-421E-8668-501282939B94.jpeg
I have the same model as you, which I’ve owned for 20 years. Yours looks correct to me, assuming the movement finishing is visible. The ADs comment about missing “The” from “The First Watch Worn on The Moon” is incorrect for this reference, Moonwatch Only confirms this as per the pictures above. From my perspective the see through case back does makes the watch appear a bit thinner than the standard model, though I do not think this is actually the case, it merely appears that way due to the see through case back.
Edited:
 
redzer007
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The important thing for me here is "when compared to"

What did they compare this to? There has not been a hesalite sandwich for some time.

All looks fine to me. Will be surprised and concerned if they are being cloned
 
diggin5
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Meme-Dweller Meme-Dweller
Movement looks genuine. Caseback isn't missing a "The". I doubt it's a fake. Anyway, why is the inside of your pusher green?

It's some shmutz. It comes right off if I scrape it with a toothpick. I've seen it before on other vintage pieces that haven't been serviced in a while.
 
diggin5
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redzer007 redzer007
The important thing for me here is "when compared to"

What did they compare this to? There has not been a hesalite sandwich for some time.

All looks fine to me. Will be surprised and concerned if they are being cloned

Compared to a modern sapphire sandwich, I think. I mentioned this watch is at least 20 years old. That didn't quite register. Admittedly, with the serial not in the database, it starts to raise other alarms for inconsistencies. They may be filling in the blanks due to a database error. I'm thinking there are authentic differences that they're saying are indicative of a clone, but are really correct.
 
Rglaz
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I got this response almost 20 years ago from OMEGA Switzerland. I picked up my watch from a yard sale in 1999 !! $150.00 I gave them (Omega) the serial number . It had Hesalite crystal on the face and the Sapphire back. They only made them for a few years and I found that the common switch was to put on a display case back on a regular Speedy . You cant switch out the crystal to hesalite from sapphire. 1863 movement is rhodium plated and NOT copper colored. ( they sent the wrong photo below ) but Omega verified that mine was the real deal when it went for a restoration years later. It now looks new but some of the Rhodium glitter is gone from mine but my gold lettering is crisp ! BUT I dont see much Cote Geneve on your watch (another poster Nathan1967 ) did a great job in providing that detail). It does look like a lot of the GOLD lettering inside yours is gone though The serial number on the lug should match the on on the bridge. ( visible through the display back )

Did you look up the serial number on line ( chuck Maddox has some ranges of S/N )




upload_2020-9-21_14-3-1.png
 
diggin5
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Gold lettering and Geneva stripes are all still there, just a bad photo. When it gets back I'll take a better photo with the back off.
 
Nathan1967
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Rglaz Rglaz
I got this response almost 20 years ago from OMEGA Switzerland. I picked up my watch from a yard sale in 1999 !! $150.00 I gave them (Omega) the serial number . It had Hesalite crystal on the face and the Sapphire back. They only made them for a few years and I found that the common switch was to put on a display case back on a regular Speedy . You cant switch out the crystal to hesalite from sapphire. 1863 movement is rhodium plated and NOT copper colored. ( they sent the wrong photo below ) but Omega verified that mine was the real deal when it went for a restoration years later. It now looks new but some of the Rhodium glitter is gone from mine but my gold lettering is crisp ! BUT I dont see much Cote Geneve on your watch (another poster Nathan1967 ) did a great job in providing that detail). It does look like a lot of the GOLD lettering inside yours is gone though The serial number on the lug should match the on on the bridge. ( visible through the display back )

Did you look up the serial number on line ( chuck Maddox has some ranges of S/N )


upload_2020-9-21_14-3-1.png
You did very well for $150 @Rglaz! I paid £1000 for mine brand new at the end of 1999 and thought I’d got the bargain to end all bargains, as I seem to remember they were around £1350 ish at MRRSP at the time.
I think the OPs serial number probably ties in with 1999 production, mine is just a few thousand higher than his.
 
perks713
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Would love to stumble across one of these for a nice low price 😀
 
diggin5
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I think the key here is sending it to Omega to authenticate and then fix the database if it's authentic. If it's a clone, they should see that too. I will be very surprised if it's a clone.
 
Archer
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diggin5 diggin5
I think the key here is sending it to Omega to authenticate and then fix the database if it's authentic. If it's a clone, they should see that too. I will be very surprised if it's a clone.

Looks fine to me. By the way, no need to fix the database, as it’s not broken.

When you gave the boutique the serial number, they put it into the Omega Extranet, and it came back with “no results found”, and that is because watches with serial numbers below 50,000,000 pretty much always come back this way. The reason is that Omega wants you to spend 150 CHF to get an extract for a watch this old, so they don’t make the search freely available.

If you send in an extract request, you will get the answers you need, but it takes weeks and costs as I’ve described...

Cheers, Al
 
hockey
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Looks legit to me - same as mine. Should have around a 77 million serial number.

0818201350c.jpg
 
Rglaz
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Nathan1967 Nathan1967
You did very well for $150 @Rglaz! I paid £1000 for mine brand new at the end of 1999 and thought I’d got the bargain to end all bargains, as I seem to remember they were around £1350 ish at MRRSP at the time.
I think the OPs serial number probably ties in with 1999 production, mine is just a few thousand higher than his.

I did very well.as it was an estate auction and most came for the furniture. It was running, but poorly. I put it away for a while. NO BOX NO Paper or id. but I knew it was a legit speedy. The restoration was done by omega and it was $800. At under $1,000 I picked up a bargain. I dont think I will ever find another bargain like that again
 
Pazzo
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That is a year 1999 production Speedmaster and it looks legit enough for me too.

@Meme-Dweller asked about the green stuff behind the pusher buttons.
That should be Verdigris. A great source of info and an expert on this board had told me that.
 
S
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Your AD is an idiot. Take it some place else. I mean, to accuse a customer of having a fake watch rather than considering the possibility of there being an issue with the database THEN providing incorrect information about what text should be on the case back. The thickness is off because they used to dealing with plexi and solid caseback OR sapphire and display case back. The plexi and display case back is a slightly different thickness to both of these.

The only reason I would go back to a place like that was to inform them of why they are wrong.

Also, from what I know, there are no high quality clones of any Moonwatch that would stand up to much scrutiny, you’re much more likely to get a Franken-speedy. Most high quality fakes are designed for the Chinese domestic market, simply because of its size and they focus on what you’d expect - Rolex, Seamasters etc.

The “Moonwatch” models of Speedmaster are nowhere near as popular in China as they are elsewhere because the Chinese state education system does not focus on the achievements of the western democracies meaning that the intangible (and over-romanticised) associations this watch has with the US moon landing do not play a part in the purchasing decisions of Chinese* consumers.

*Mainland Chinese.
Edited:
 
kelsey
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S SlCKB0Y
Your AD is an idiot. Take it some place else. I mean, to accuse a customer of having a fake watch rather than considering the possibility of there being an issue with the database THEN providing incorrect information about what text should be on the case back. The thickness is off because they used to dealing with plexi and solid caseback OR sapphire and display case back. The plexi and display case back is a slightly different thickness to both of these.

The only reason I would go back to a place like that was to inform them of why they are wrong.

Also, from what I know, there are no high quality clones of any Moonwatch that would stand up to much scrutiny, you’re much more likely to get a Franken-speedy. Most high quality fakes are designed for the Chinese domestic market, simply because of its size and they focus on what you’d expect - Rolex, Seamasters etc.

The “Moonwatch” models of Speedmaster are nowhere near as popular in China as they are elsewhere because the Chinese state education system does not focus on the achievements of the western democracies meaning that the intangible (and over-romanticised) associations this watch has with the US moon landing do not play a part in the purchasing decisions of Chinese* consumers.

*Mainland Chinese.
As a western with a home in China, I strongly agree and disagree.
Agree I’ve see excellent no expensive spared replicas of Rolex etc domestically in China, but yeah never see anything but a junk replica speedmaster domestically in China.
Funny many places in China if you have high end brand label goods, default is everyone assume its fake.
Agree the speedmaster isn’t popular in China, of the Omega’s the sea master is the popular one.

Disagree; However the moon landing in China is heavily respected as a milestone achievement for all mankind. My Chinese friends celebrated the achievement last year way more then my Aussie friends.
 
Foo2rama
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redzer007 redzer007
The important thing for me here is "when compared to"

What did they compare this to? There has not been a hesalite sandwich for some time.

All looks fine to me. Will be surprised and concerned if they are being cloned
My guess is they are comparing to the current sapphire sandwich which has a newer back.

I see no issues.

currentsaphhite.PNG

current Sapphire for reference.
 
S
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kelsey kelsey
Disagree; However the moon landing in China is heavily respected as a milestone achievement for all mankind. My Chinese friends celebrated the achievement last year way more then my Aussie friends

‘That part was pure assumption on my part!
 
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