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Speedmaster Arguments

N
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I frequently see Speedmaster threads arguing the age old Hesalite vs Sapphire preferences with the Hesalite being the more historically "accurate" model.

While I have my own preferences (sapphire), I am beginning to take issue with the historically "accurate" aspect of the argument.

The new 3861s have the new/innovated/revolutionary Co-Axial movements. While I have now doubt that these movements are a great improvement in accuracy/service requirement/ease of manufacturing compared to the old ones (321, 861, 1861), how can they even part of a "historically accurate" argument?

I would argue a sapphire 321/861/1861 is far more historically accurate than a Hesalite 3861.

FWIW I own both a sapphire 3861 and a modern 321. If I had gotten the 321 first, I would not have bought the 3861.
 
Tag0935
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And so you add "another" thread to the bunch that you already found? What is the added value in this one? To again argue that 321 is more historically relevant? Does it even matter? Everyone buys what they like. Want a historically relevant reference? Buy vintage 321! Want a modern watch with all the bells and whistles? Get a saphire 3861 or modern EW or second FOiS, all great choices.
 
N
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Thanks for your contribution.

Are you a Speedmaster owner? If so which one?

Sorry to touch a nerve.
 
bsowers34
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I have four 3861s. White, hesalite, FOIS and Snoopy 50. A new version 321 might be next, but we'll see. I collected the new ones, because going down the rabbit hole of vintage is something I don't feel like doing. But Tag is right, there are a bunch of speedmaster threads debating the pros and cons of the various calibers.
 
Donn Chambers
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While many have argued the hesalite is more "historically" accurate because that is the type of crystal that was flown in space (primarily because it was the material used at that time), many of us select the hesalite because it looks better. The domed crystal shows off the dial better at most angles and has a nice distortion on the edges.

When I went to purchase mine a few months ago, the wife was with me. I was leaning toward the hesalite and asked her opinion. She said it looked better because it made the dial "prettier". 😀

I got the hesalite. I really wish Omega would offer it as an option on some of their divers.
 
Tag0935
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N njlam
Thanks for your contribution.

Are you a Speedmaster owner? If so which one?

Sorry to touch a nerve.
Yes, I own several, both modern and vintage, both sapphire and hesalite. Each has its charm, and I enjoy wearing them all, depending on mood and weather. I look after the vintage ones with more care, and avoid wearing them when it rains. But what are you after in this thread? I don't get it.
 
N
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Tag0935 Tag0935
But what are you after in this thread? I don't get it.
Just trying to start a conversation with other enthusiasts about something deeper than Hesalite vs Sapphire question.

I am new to the Speedmaster and am fascinated with the evolution of the movement and hope to learn from people who know more.

You don't need to participate, but are welcome to in a positive and friendly manner.
Edited:
 
bsowers34
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Donn Chambers Donn Chambers
While many have argued the hesalite is more "historically" accurate because that is the type of crystal that was flown in space (primarily because it was the material used at that time), many of us select the hesalite because it looks better. The domed crystal shows off the dial better at most angles and has a nice distortion on the edges.

When I went to purchase mine a few months ago, the wife was with me. I was leaning toward the hesalite and asked her opinion. She said it looked better because it made the dial "prettier". 😀

I got the hesalite. I really wish Omega would offer it as an option on some of their divers.
I agree. I originally did not buy a sapphire black dial because the dial looked "flat". The Hesalite dome makes it pop. No such problem with the white one though.
 
ErichPryde
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the major issue with the sapphire crystal on the 1863 and 3861 is that the "boxed" style crystal doesn't look at all like a hesalite crystal. It's not just that the sapphire adds a colder touch to the dial, it's the lack of lensing effect you get without the dome and the overlarge milky ring, which acts almost as a white "chapter ring."

These things make the dial appear SMALLER than it actually is.

all other arguments about historical accuracy aside, the current domed sapphire crystals that omega is moving towards on the 321, anniversary FOIS, heritage, and ND SMP- are visually much, much much better than the "boxed" crystal that omega decided to use on the speedy.
 
bsowers34
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ErichPryde ErichPryde
the major issue with the sapphire crystal on the 1863 and 3861 is that the "boxed" style crystal doesn't look at all like a hesalite crystal. It's not just that the sapphire adds a colder touch to the dial, it's the lack of lensing effect you get without the dome and the overlarge milky ring, which acts almost as a white "chapter ring."

These things make the dial appear SMALLER than it actually is.

all other arguments about historical accuracy aside, the current domed sapphire crystals that omega is moving towards on the 321, anniversary FOIS, heritage, and ND SMP- are visually much, much much better than the "boxed" crystal that omega decided to use on the speedy.
Yes, the FOIS sapphire needs to be on all the 3861s.
 
Dan S
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Neither sapphire nor co-axial belong in a "historically accurate" discussion, IMO. But nobody is forcing you to care about historical accuracy. If you like sapphire, go for it.
 
Davidt
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I agree if you want a Moonwatch, you need a 321 movement and hesalite. Cal 861 with hesalite was the first branded Moonwatch, but is a departure from those worn on the moon. However, it was available to buy if you went to a store during the moon landings (and apparently was used on the shuttle).
Every iteration since then has been a further departure, such as the 1861, sapphire etc. the 3861 is another step down that road.
 
N
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When I bought my first Moonwatch, I compared the 3861s side by side and definitely felt the Hesalite looked better, but bought the Sapphire because of the open case back and the applied logo. Now that I know more about watches and the history behind the Moonwatch, I appreciate the Hesalite more, but if I bought one, it would not be a 3861 because the movement is too modern.

I agree the new sapphire crystal on the FOIS is a great step in the right direction.

I wonder why the modern 321 didn't come with a Hesalite crystal?
 
NotJackson
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I’m not that concerned about historical accuracy. I just don’t like the Speedmaster sapphire crystal very much. Maybe the new FOIS crystal has a better profile, but the reflection generated by the sapphire on the 3861 Speedy made it a non-starter for me.
 
spacemission
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Don't get obsessed with this issue. It reminds me of some people who are obsessed with the lug to lug. This kind of people don't enjoy horology one hundred percent.
 
Foo2rama
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N njlam
I frequently see Speedmaster threads arguing the age old Hesalite vs Sapphire preferences with the Hesalite being the more historically "accurate" model.

While I have my own preferences (sapphire), I am beginning to take issue with the historically "accurate" aspect of the argument.

The new 3861s have the new/innovated/revolutionary Co-Axial movements. While I have now doubt that these movements are a great improvement in accuracy/service requirement/ease of manufacturing compared to the old ones (321, 861, 1861), how can they even part of a "historically accurate" argument?

I would argue a sapphire 321/861/1861 is far more historically accurate than a Hesalite 3861.

FWIW I own both a sapphire 3861 and a modern 321. If I had gotten the 321 first, I would not have bought the 3861.
Huh?

OK then riddle you this... No watch that is marked as NASA qualified ever went to the moon. A single 861 did go around the Moon though....

The biggest problem is that up untill the last few versions in the past 2 years or so, is the Sapphire had the horrible milky ring problem. Hence it looked wrong and to most people ugly.

Also how would a Sapphire 321 or 861 make any sense as being historically accurate lol. There was never a sapphire 321 ( it didn't really exist during the 321 run.) I also am pretty sure the Sapphire option started post 1991 and the move to the 1861. ( arguably 1989 I know)
 
N
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Fun discussion.

All I am saying is a Hesalite crystal on a modern movement like the 3861 is no more historically significant than a any other sapphire crystalled Speedmaster...they are all bastardized updates of a great original idea.
 
chiefenergy
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N njlam
Fun discussion.

All I am saying is a Hesalite crystal on a modern movement like the 3861 is no more historically significant than a any other sapphire crystalled Speedmaster...they are all bastardized updates of a great original idea.
Hesalite is more historically significant versus Saphire on the moonwatch.
 
pdxleaf
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My tastes and opinions have evolved a lot since my first speedmaster, an 1861 with hesalite. I too got it because it looked like a moon watch and I heard the hesalite was more authentic. Then I went down the vintage and purist hole, emerging out of it to mod my 1861 with a different Omega dial and hands.

As a thought experiment, you can argue that the specific references worn by each of the moon walkers were the only authentic watches. But that misses some of the beauty of the speedmaster.

The essence of the speedmaster is it is in the same model line as the watches worn on the moon. Even back in the sixties, it wasn't static, they were changing and evolving. The watch Wally Shirra wore was different than the watch tested by NASA, which was different from the watches worn on the moon, and different frim the watches worn on the ISS. My point being that NASA used watches that were available at the time. They would have used sapphire or 3861 if it was available ( and passed the tests.) I think there's enough connections between each reference and the space program that you can find joy in whatever one you like.

One of my favorites is the 145.022-69 straight writing Apollo XI caseback. I like it because it's one of the first time Omega put anything on the caseback related to the moon connection. I took it off just now to photo the watch:

20250428_170628.webp


Omega didn't consult with NASA or even seem to have figured out what they wanted on the back. It's like the company got caught up in the collective moon landing euphoria and were proudly telling everyone, "THE FIRST WATCH WORN ON THE MOON!" I love that they loosened up and showed their excitement.

Is this an authentic moonwatch with a 861 movement? Strictly speaking, no. But it has a real connection to that moment in time in 1969 when the world was united and excited about three humans who had successfully stepped on the moon and returned alive.

The new 3861 is a spectacular watch. Many of the design features are closer to the original 321s, even if the movement is updated. I think the thread that ties these all together is still strong and can enjoy them all.
 
noelekal
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The entire moon effort was neato, but that isn't why I own a Speedmaster. I just really like the styling of of my 1985 Moon Watch with its 861 movement and hesalite crystal.
 
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