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eugeneandresson
·
Awe shucks Larry, there is no right or wrong answer here. I’m sure this is a contrarian (in the world today) view. Heck some guys go bonkers for Hublot 🤮🤮🤮
Sotheby’s Lot 38 105.002-62, Aug 23 update; AKA the stories photos tell us
Awe shucks Larry, there is no right or wrong answer here. I’m sure this is a contrarian (in the world today) view. Heck some guys go bonkers for Hublot 🤮🤮🤮
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larryganz
·Awe shucks Larry, there is no right or wrong answer here. I’m sure this is a contrarian (in the world today) view. Heck some guys go bonkers for Hublot 😀😜uke::🤮🤮) ...
You missed my edit that I did about 10 seconds after you quoted me...
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eugeneandresson
·You missed my edit that I did about 10 seconds after you quoted me...
All great choices. And got nothing against any modern Rolex mentioned (they are great watches!), if you can get one at list, and you are a collector and appreciate them for what they are, all great choices too. The context of my comments (I can't really speak for @airansun) are 'watches that sell for around 20k that the masses would jump on instead of this', nothing more. There are, after all, estimated a rough total production of 1000 of each sub-reference of 2998, and also of each type of 105002 (alpha/batton) ... so there are quite a lot less around now after 60 years, and even less than that in decent condition.
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ICONO
·As can sometimes occur, on this Forum…the desire to uncover deliberate malfeasance, can sometimes over ride common sense
‘Cock up’ …rather than conspiracy…is nearly always the answer
I would suggest shifting the blame for the final image…away from the photographer…and directly towards the ineptitude of Sotheby’s Art Dept
The photographer will have supplied ‘raw’ digital camera files… to the Art Director / Production Manager at Sothebys
Without boring the ass off everyone …and very simply…’Raw’ files are a bit, like a film negative
They have to be significantly processed, to obtain the full depth of information they contain
The digital manipulation of this final choice of image, and how it renders …is part of the process of white balancing and color grading.
An example of what can be achieved, pinched from Wiki…showing the initial raw file…compared to the final result, demonstrating what can be extracted
Whoever in Sotheby’s Art Dept, processed the final image… needed the actual watch, in question, right next to him in neutral light …in order to compare and correctly reproduce its colour
I would suggest this did not happen…and the technician used a reference ‘jpeg’ ( the digital equivalent of a Polaroid ! ) …to simply try, to produce a dramatic image for the catalogue
The responsibility for this error lies with the Production Manager, not confirming the colour balance was correct on screen…before going to print
And then not detecting the error again when the ‘proofs’ were seen, before the final run
Simple incompetence…rather than a deliberate attempt to deceive
Moving on …Whilst the OP may not wish, to return his purchase
I do think he has a very strong case for getting his ‘Buyers Premium’ on the Sale, refunded…
‘Cock up’ …rather than conspiracy…is nearly always the answer
I would suggest shifting the blame for the final image…away from the photographer…and directly towards the ineptitude of Sotheby’s Art Dept
The photographer will have supplied ‘raw’ digital camera files… to the Art Director / Production Manager at Sothebys
Without boring the ass off everyone …and very simply…’Raw’ files are a bit, like a film negative
They have to be significantly processed, to obtain the full depth of information they contain
The digital manipulation of this final choice of image, and how it renders …is part of the process of white balancing and color grading.
An example of what can be achieved, pinched from Wiki…showing the initial raw file…compared to the final result, demonstrating what can be extracted
Whoever in Sotheby’s Art Dept, processed the final image… needed the actual watch, in question, right next to him in neutral light …in order to compare and correctly reproduce its colour
I would suggest this did not happen…and the technician used a reference ‘jpeg’ ( the digital equivalent of a Polaroid ! ) …to simply try, to produce a dramatic image for the catalogue
The responsibility for this error lies with the Production Manager, not confirming the colour balance was correct on screen…before going to print
And then not detecting the error again when the ‘proofs’ were seen, before the final run
Simple incompetence…rather than a deliberate attempt to deceive
Moving on …Whilst the OP may not wish, to return his purchase
I do think he has a very strong case for getting his ‘Buyers Premium’ on the Sale, refunded…
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JwRosenthal
·Interesting points raised here. I think
Congrats on this watch! Super super nice.
Interesting points raised in this thread. In my opinion, I think the dial looks fairly black in the photos.... I don't really see any brown at all, and I don't think they were misleading in their description (they don't describe the dial as 'brown' or 'tropical' anywhere, and are honest with the condition of the lume).
Looking at this snapshot below of the phot from the listing, IMO the dial is very much black - but I agree the lume is far more yellow/orange and the bezel far more blue in the photo than in natural light (probably done on purpose). Is this misleading? I guess it is, particularly when you're paying this amount of money.
Separately - broadly I think it's not uncommon in the vintage watch industry to have more artistic renderings of watches (and really, with any material good to be honest). Sothebys would probably argue (i'm not defending them) that with the background, it's clearly an altered photo. David Parmegiani for example is one of the most respected vintage watch dealers in the world, and his instagram is entirely ads for watches that are clearly altered pictures to a natural photo.
I think its just worth pointing out that the $300k Lambo you're seeing in a Lamborghini catelogue is not going to be exactly accurate to how it looks in natural lighting - neither are the Rolexes in new Rolex ads. This exists in all walks of life for luxury goods.
Photography for an auction sales catalog is supposed to adhere to the same standards as museum archives- they can be dynamic and beautiful, but accurately convey the tones, color and textures of the subject- it’s for a different audience.
In museum/archives photography , this is paramount as if the original piece of art is lost, the photograph is the only record. If historical research is later done using the photograph as the primary record, then the research would be flawed as information is inaccurate.
To illustrate the point, if a photograph was taken of a privately held Cezanne that had never been seen publicly, and the painting was stolen in transit, that photograph is the only record. If that photographer decided to “jazz” it up a bit with some color and contrast enhancements (or used auto white balance in the camera instead of using a grey scale or color chart), then the colors are inaccurate. 25 years later a researcher is doing a history on the work of Cezanne and finds this photograph and realized that the blue in the photo is depicted as Prussian blue as opposed to cobalt- well that changes everything!! Where was Cezanne sourcing Prussian blue? This may not have been a color he ever used so this bring in a whole new element- based on an inaccurate source.
No, this watch isn’t a Cezanne, but an auction house should treat every piece they catalog with the same reverence.
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Syrte
·‘Cock up’ …rather than conspiracy…is nearly always the answer
The photographer will have supplied ‘raw’ digital camera files… to the Art Director / Production Manager at Sotheby
Simple incompetence…rather than a deliberate attempt to deceive
Moving on …Whilst the OP may not wish, to return his purchase
I do think he has a very strong case for getting his ‘Buyers Premium’ on the Sale, refunded…
This has the ring of 100% truth— and the suggested remedy is also an excellent one.
Because while the buyer may end up liking the watch, it’s not what he expected, the watch is objectively not as described, and the picture must have significantly influenced all bidders to push their bids by several thousands.
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JwRosenthal
·This has the ring of 100% truth— and the suggested remedy is also an excellent one.
Because while the buyer may end up liking the watch, it’s not what he expected, the watch is objectively not as described, and the picture must have significantly influenced all bidders to push their bids by several thousands.
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wouter van wijk
·@airansun nice watch. It is really good value for money. Different kind of hue than in the catalogue of course @ICONO agree with post production. At this moment I am processing a collection of 15 plus speedmasters. I have sold more Speedmasters before but you really start to get to know how difficult it is when you have to process one collection of Speedmasters during a one day photo shoot. These are really difficult to capture. I started last year as a dealer with a professional photographer (completely over powered with a Hasselblad and fully equipped studio with Profoto lightning). He sometimes doesn't get all the details that I would love to capture while taking pictures and secondly in post-production. As a newby in photography I also bought myself a simple Canon Eos camera with a compact Foldio studio. I tried my best to get decent results but to me it did not meet my personal standards. So I continued with my photographer. We learn by doing and getting better with each shoot. Speedmasters are one of the most difficult watches to take pictures of as many of you know. They are very difficult to get really focussed with the right kind of hue on the black dial with the perfect balance of showing enough patina and imperfections (loosing glare) while at the same time showing the shininess of brushed and polished metal. All of this without stacking these pictures (really time consuming and really expensive. My solution is to take the most pictures in the studio, with indirect lighting from soft boxes, with a cardboard surrounding the camera, while that gives a less vivid image. Thereby I always take wrist shots and take additional pictures in natural light. I am often surprised by auction houses that they tend to show as few images as possible. In the metal you quite often see irregularities that you won't be able to judge by looking at 1 or pictures. I've seen a Speedmaster at a recent viewing day in Paris for instance which I thought would be nice to buy, and the case of the watch had a really big dent in the on the side of the case as big as a grain of rise. You couldn't see it on the pictures.
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ICONO
·@airansun nice watch. It is really good value for money. Different kind of hue than in the catalogue of course @ICONO agree with post production. At this moment I am processing a collection of 15 plus speedmasters. I have sold more Speedmasters before but you really start to get to know how difficult it is when you have to process one collection of Speedmasters during a one day photo shoot. These are really difficult to capture. I started last year as a dealer with a professional photographer (completely over powered with a Hasselblad and fully equipped studio with Profoto lightning). He sometimes doesn't get all the details that I would love to capture while taking pictures and secondly in post-production. As a newby in photography I also bought myself a simple Canon Eos camera with a compact Foldio studio. I tried my best to get decent results but to me it did not meet my personal standards. So I continued with my photographer. We learn by doing and getting better with each shoot. Speedmasters are one of the most difficult watches to take pictures of as many of you know. They are very difficult to get really focussed with the right kind of hue on the black dial with the perfect balance of showing enough patina and imperfections (loosing glare) while at the same time showing the shininess of brushed and polished metal. All of this without stacking these pictures (really time consuming and really expensive. My solution is to take the most pictures in the studio, with indirect lighting from soft boxes, with a cardboard surrounding the camera, while that gives a less vivid image. Thereby I always take wrist shots and take additional pictures in natural light. I am often surprised by auction houses that they tend to show as few images as possible. In the metal you quite often see irregularities that you won't be able to judge by looking at 1 or pictures. I've seen a Speedmaster at a recent viewing day in Paris for instance which I thought would be nice to buy, and the case of the watch had a really big dent in the on the side of the case as big as a grain of rise. You couldn't see it on the pictures.
As a former Professional Photographer ( turned Academic ) …I applaud your desire to be as accurate in your depiction, of the nuances in colour of your watches…as you can be
The curve ball…( and of course, there is one ! )…is that however hard you try…you cannot standardise the colour balance, of the screen that your Buyers are viewing the image on…🤦
Nevertheless …I would rather buy a watch from you !… for at least trying…than some of the other Dealers, out there
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wouter van wijk
·The curve ball…( and of course, there is one ! )…is that however hard you try…you cannot standardise the colour balance, of the screen that your Buyers are viewing the image on…🤦
Nevertheless …I would rather buy a watch from you !… for at least trying…than some of the other Dealers, out there
Fully agree with you. And thanks! Photography for me it is really one of the most important things of buying/selling watches (....and I do my utmost best to learn and get better and better...) Besides being as honest as you can, provide really nice descriptions and let's not forget having fun!!
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JwRosenthal
·If I were spending this amount of money on something and color was crucial (as it seems to be with these watches as they age), I would want something like this in the photo to calibrate my screen against.
The whole point of using color charts is for the very variable that @ICONO mentioned- not all screens are calibrated the same way. Like in the fine art world (which is where we are going with judging color on a watch), perhaps some color control strips should become SOP when selling- particularly at auction....just a thought.
The whole point of using color charts is for the very variable that @ICONO mentioned- not all screens are calibrated the same way. Like in the fine art world (which is where we are going with judging color on a watch), perhaps some color control strips should become SOP when selling- particularly at auction....just a thought.
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nonuffinkbloke
·I always enjoy your posts Patrick... primarily because they are informative (particularly with regard to photography) but also because I often discover a new word that I can use. 😀
I'm going for a walk around my village in minute, just to see if I can find some scoundrel engaged in:
...😡
I'm going for a walk around my village in minute, just to see if I can find some scoundrel engaged in:
malfeasance,
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cristos71
·I find it somewhat hard to swallow that accidental post processing errors coincidentally led to a highly desired brown dial and highly desired blue bezel. I mean c'mon this was intended from the beginning!
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M'Bob
·I find it somewhat hard to swallow that accidental post processing errors coincidentally led to a highly desired brown dial and highly desired blue bezel.
You're so jaded. And I suppose you don't believe Dennis Rodman when he told his then wife, Carmen Electra, when she caught him in bed with two women, that they "fell through the ceiling."?
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jsducote
·So, if Sotheby's can get away with this, are others going to follow suit? What's the true color of this Submariner's bezel??
https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/gentlemen-s-rolex-oyster-perpetual-submariner-me-87a40d49d2
https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/gentlemen-s-rolex-oyster-perpetual-submariner-me-87a40d49d2
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larryganz
·So, if Sotheby's can get away with this, are others going to follow suit? What's the true color of this Submariner's bezel??
https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/gentlemen-s-rolex-oyster-perpetual-submariner-me-87a40d49d2
It better be grey
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JwRosenthal
·It better be grey
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jsducote
·But seriously, it's somewhere between royal and navy blue, isn't it?
