So... any of our members here have an interest in firearms?

ChiefMark · Jul 29, 2020

Don’t get me wrong - I love the 1911, own several, competed with the 1911 platform, and carried one every day for a decade.

Then I discovered striker-fired polymer handguns. In my case, the Glock, but there are other options.

Now I rarely carry my 1911s, but I do still take them to the range.

The best carry gun has nothing to do with good looks, little to do with capacity, and unless you want to spend time in prison, nothing to do with accuracy at 25 yards. Civilian defensive shooting happen inside of 7 yards. Most often inside of 3. Much longer and your “imminent danger to life” criteria is harder to prove.

So what am I saying matters? The best carry gun is the one you will always carry. The one you’ll practice with regularly. A 1911 is a heavy hunk of iron on your waist. I know, I carried one. A polymer sidearm with 10 or 15 rounds of 9mm is much easier to carry and conceal than the 1911 with 7 or 8 rounds.

in the winter, you can conceal whatever hand cannon you want, but the weight will still be there.

The 1911 manual of arms requires more training, more practice, and more dedication to master as a CCW weapon. Striker fired DAO pistols without a manual safety are easier to become and stay proficient with. I’ve taught a lot of folks to shoot 1911s, and well over half of them either quit carrying after the new wore off or switched to a lighter pistol.

You should try out several pistols at a range. Find something that fits your hand and feels right. Don’t settle on something because of what someone says. Settle on the pistol that you’ll shoot and carry. A gorgeous Ed Brown, or a Wilson Combat, or Jardine sitting in the safe 90% of the time is infinitely inferior to the M&P 9mm that’s on your belt when you didn’t think you’d ever need it but carried it anyway.

Edit:

Full disclosure, I don’t carry an M&P, just threw that out there as an example. I usually carry a Glock 19. Sometimes a 17. Sometimes a 42. When it’s really hot and I’m wearing shorts I usually go with the 43 or even a KelTec P3AT if concealment is paramount. Occasionally, when I’m feeling nostalgic, I’ll carry a Kimber, Colt, or Wilson Combat 1911.

SkunkPrince · Jul 29, 2020

C ChiefMark
The 1911 manual of arms requires more training, more practice, and more dedication to master as a CCW weapon.

Eh, maybe. I had zero issue with it. I truly mean ZERO. But then again, I must have been John Browning in a previous life because it Just Fit Me. In my concealed carry classes, not required for me but come on... the instructors had to help all the plastic gun people, and here I am blasting away with my Colt like it was natural (I wish I was, aging eyes).

But that doesn't take away from my M&P Shield 9 EZ! Has more or less the right number of safeties and maybe some day I'll get something different. But I guess I just have the right mindset for a 1911.

The Father · Jul 29, 2020

This 1911 stuff really creates a conundrum, I think I really need one from the fancy rigs posted here. Then I look in the safe at all the handguns I have, and go “na, got plenty”
9mm 1911 compact as show with the Springfield Armory example or all out and get the Wilson Combat 1911 EDC.
Is a real conundrum.....

ChiefMark · Jul 29, 2020

SkunkPrince
Eh, maybe. I had zero issue with it. I truly mean ZERO. But then again, I must have been John Browning in a previous life because it Just Fit Me. In my concealed carry classes, not required for me but come on... the instructors had to help all the plastic gun people, and here I am blasting away with my Colt like it was natural (I wish I was, aging eyes).

But that doesn't take away from my M&P Shield 9 EZ! Has more or less the right number of safeties and maybe some day I'll get something different. But I guess I just have the right mindset for a 1911.

When you’re willing to put in the time, it’s fine. It’s when people are truly suddenly confronted with a threat, the adrenaline pumps, the primitive brain sets in, and they stumble over the thumb safety, blindly jerking a dead trigger. Time is lost. I don’t know if you’ve ever trained under stress or not. If you haven’t, do.

I think the correct number of manually operated safeties on a carry gun is zero. Your booger hook is the only safety. Of course, that’s not true with a 1911 where you’re carrying Condition 1.

People are free to carry whatever they like. I’d just prefer it if they were as proficient as possible with whatever that is. I also notice that people are by and large not willing to put in the time and effort. They take an 8-hour class or spend time with a buddy at the range and think they’re Col. Cooper. So I tend to recommend pistols with the simplest manual of arms, like DAO striker fired weapons with no manual safeties or revolvers.

64Wing · Jul 29, 2020

Such great responses in such a short time!

To touch on some points:
1. The weight of the 1911 does not deter me as I typically carry many knives, flashlights, and tools in my pocket all day at work. And those are not as near to my center of mass as a 4 o'clock holster. If at the end of the day I swap the shop pants full of tools for my jeans with a pistol, I'd actually be lighter on the belt.
2. Commitment to training. Absolutely paramount and even fun. It just takes the discipline to build time into the schedule for dedicated and varied training. Just as an example/hypothetical: every Thursday evening would be range time. No exceptions. Other obligations would be moved to accommodate the necessary training because it really is that important. No different than committing to flight training, maintenance training, learning to play an instrument, etc.
3. Being accustomed to the entry prices in the watch world, I'm very pleased at the options in the handgun arena for MUCH less than my Speedy...
4. The capacity argument. I understand there may be a tactical advantage having more rounds. MAY! But I subscribe to the school of thought that three or so perfectly placed rounds from a .45 are more effective than having the option to empty 13-15 rounds from a double stack with 15% accuracy. This could lead into my next point.
5. If you ever have to use your firearm (God forbid), you WILL be in court for it. I believe a verdict would favor the individual that is well trained and had the discipline and skill not to empty the mag and risk a bunch of collateral damage. Character profile should be easier to establish when a witness comes and swears under oath that you're a regular at the range and participate in value-added skills training every week. This would be better than the prosecutor getting a hold of the guy that gave you your CCW training and he can't even remember your name because he hasn't seen you since.
6. Back to weapon selection. I'm really leaning toward going with my gut and grabbing that 1911. I may discover after much range time that I would prefer a revolver or a polymer frame. So be it, but I must start somewhere. Might as well start where I'm most comfortable. I've never shot anything as well as a commander size 1911 chambered in .45. Go figure.

Keep em' coming, gang! Best to you all!

SkunkPrince · Jul 29, 2020

The Father
This 1911 stuff really creates a conundrum, I think I really need one from the fancy rigs posted here.

Those fancy rigs don't do anything better than a GI-spec gun does. Anyone who claims otherwise likes to see their money disappear.

SkunkPrince · Jul 29, 2020

C ChiefMark
I think the correct number of manually operated safeties on a carry gun is zero. Your booger hook is the only safety. Of course, that’s not true with a 1911 where you’re carrying Condition 1.

John Browning built the gun without an active manual safety, after all. That said, not only do I train with the safety, my last class I trained with the lanyard as well.

I like safety devices and I make sure they work after the pistol gets reassembled and again before it gets loaded. But that's me. As you point out, these are very personal things and perhaps one of the most important/significant person-to-device relationships that can be had.

The Father · Jul 29, 2020

I like the 1911’s with ivory grips or some other exotic material. The wood ones are pretty good also. 1911 just lends itself to being made very handsome.
To the safety theory, have Glocks manly because of the lack of a safety. Can’t count all the times the crew was ready to get it on with Indians and they started to pound away but damn “didn’t flip the safety off” “WTF dude your leaving me hanging here”

Obligatory sidearm picture

ChiefMark · Jul 29, 2020

The Father
Can’t count all the times the crew was ready to get it on with Indians and they started to pound away but damn “didn’t flip the safety off” “WTF dude your leaving me hanging here”

I do love a good anachronism. A firearm with a manual safety being present at any battle with <people indigenous to the North American continent> is a doozy. The last of the battles with Indians (1890) was two years before the first semiautomatic pistol was invented, and six years before Brownings first design.

To the point you’re trying to make, there’s a difference between a trained soldier who has trained to fire accurately, clear malfunctions, reload, and maneuver under stress, and a guy who just bought a pistol at the local Cabela’s. 🙄 ::stirthepot::

ChiefMark · Aug 2, 2020

Feeling creative with my WRUW this morning and took an extra couple for this thread. One of my favorite NFA items, for when you simply have to coordinate your PDW with your timepiece.

time flies · Aug 2, 2020

C ChiefMark
Feeling creative with my WRUW this morning and took an extra couple for this thread. One of my favorite NFA items, for when you simply have to coordinate your PDW with your timepiece.

Boating accident...😀

have fun
kfw

ChiefMark · Aug 2, 2020

I’m trying to imagine the sh!tstorm that ensues if you call the ATF and do the boating accident thing... 😲

valkyrie_rider · Aug 2, 2020

64Wing
Such great responses in such a short time!
6. Back to weapon selection. I'm really leaning toward going with my gut and grabbing that 1911.

It seems you had your mind set to a 1911 since the beginning.
😀

I believe there are 6 items on what makes a good carry gun:
a) Reliability: it has to always go bang!
b) Shootability: it has to be comfortable while shooting. This is really subjective to each individual's needs and features (hand size, finger length, etc) and time applied to master the gun.
c) Capacity: more bullets means you won't go out of ammo.
d) Price: hope it won't break the bank and keep in mind it will have holster wear. Are you OK with aesthetically 'ruining' that special Wilson Combat 1911? 😀
e) Easy of maintenance: should be easy to field strip/clean/lub. If is your carry gun, it will start accumulating lint and grime so you better remember to clean it at least in a bi-weekly basis.
f) Safety: the presence of a safety device may be desirable, but a DA/SA design works fine (e.g. Sig Sauer p229) in my view.

I would say that items 'a' and 'c' will make the 1911 drop from the list of candidates (i.e. .45acp is an amazing round but is also 'fatter' and the fact that the 1911 is single stack means less capacity). Also, the 1911 is a venerable design but is over 1 century old and kind finicky compared to the new 'wonder nines' designed many decades later.

One exception to the capacity rule is if you live in a non-free State (i.e. California) and has to live with restricted magazine capacity (i.e. only 10 rounds) then .45acp may be ok with a double stack gun (e.g. HK USP 45 compact).

That being said, modern ammo technology makes 9mm more than capable to stop 2 legged treats.

Glocks are favored for carry guns because it matches 5 out of the 6 items in my view, only missing the mark (pun intended) on 'Shootability'. I personally never got used to the gritty and weird glock trigger.

I personally like Sig Sauers and HKs, they are really well built but fails a bit on the price category (item 'd'), but fulfill all the others (i.e. Reliability, Shootability, Capacity, Maintenance, Safety).

If I had access to any gun as you mentioned, I would consider either the HK P30 on any of its sizes (L, SK, etc) or alternatively the Sig Sauer P229.

For a 1911 lover, they both are hammer based instead of striker like a Glock.
😀

If you are not used to a DA/SA gun, the HKs can be changed to be single action only (LEM trigger) and the Sig Sauer P229 has the Legion SA model (https://www.sigsauer.com/store/p229-legion-compact-sao.html).

The Sig P229 has 2 advantages over the HK:
a) Better stock trigger: a stock HK trigger is gritty and has some slack. Can be improved with a Match trigger though.
b) Alloy frame: call me old faction, but I like my guns in metal.

The HK has 3 advantages over the Sigs:
a) Safety lever: can be carried cocked and with safety on.
b) Composite frame: is lighter than an alloy frame.
c) Interchangeable backstrap inserts: allows you to adjust the size of the grip.

Whatever you decide to carry, remember to spend time finding a good holster and practicing with the gun + chosen carry ammo in the range.
😀

SkunkPrince · Aug 2, 2020

valkyrie_rider
I would say that items 'a' and 'c' will make the 1911 drop from the list of candidates (i.e. .45acp is an amazing round but is also 'fatter' and the fact that the 1911 is single stack means less capacity). Also, the 1911 is a venerable design but is over 1 century old and kind finicky compared to the new 'wonder nines' designed many decades later.

This right here makes it clear you don't know what you're talking about the 1911 platform.

No one needs high capacity, except perhaps military and police. The vast majority of the time, just having a gun is sufficient to get the bad guys to run away. Seven rounds is plenty in the gun and ya know what? They make these things called "magazines" that you can replace. (This is not to say that you cannot have high capacity if you want it. Your money. Your choice.)

Yes, the 1911 design is over a centuiry old... because it works. The only time it's "finicky" is some designer who thinks he knows better than John Browning makes it too tight, parts are not to military specification, and owners try to screw with the pistol even more.

The only true 1911 is a pistol built to the originaal Colt blueprints as designed by John Browning. Nothing else is an improvement as a weapon.

Now, sure, people have screwed with the 1911 for other purposes, such as shooting matches and other competitions. But, if you study the original acceptance criteria, they literally dragged that pistol through the mud to make sure it still went bang. It also shoots within three inches at 25 yards (call it 8cm at 25 meters for you metric people).

The only true defensive version of the 1911 is the original. Want some velocity instead of a 230g Federal HST? No sweat. Get a Super .38.

There are as many different guns as people who carry them. The 1911 is one. It's still a good choice.

SkunkPrince · Aug 2, 2020

And yes, I walk the walk as well as talk the talk.

SkunkPrince · Aug 2, 2020

Above: Original Colt Model of 1911

Below: Remington-UMC produced by Turnbull under contract to Remington Arms.

64Wing · Aug 2, 2020

valkyrie_rider
It seems you had your mind set to a 1911 since the beginning.
😀

I believe there are 6 items on what makes a good carry gun:
a) Reliability: it has to always go bang!
b) Shootability: it has to be comfortable while shooting. This is really subjective to each individual's needs and features (hand size, finger length, etc) and time applied to master the gun.
c) Capacity: more bullets means you won't go out of ammo.
d) Price: hope it won't break the bank and keep in mind it will have holster wear. Are you OK with aesthetically 'ruining' that special Wilson Combat 1911? 😀
e) Easy of maintenance: should be easy to field strip/clean/lub. If is your carry gun, it will start accumulating lint and grime so you better remember to clean it at least in a bi-weekly basis.
f) Safety: the presence of a safety device may be desirable, but a DA/SA design works fine (e.g. Sig Sauer p229) in my view.

I would say that items 'a' and 'c' will make the 1911 drop from the list of candidates (i.e. .45acp is an amazing round but is also 'fatter' and the fact that the 1911 is single stack means less capacity). Also, the 1911 is a venerable design but is over 1 century old and kind finicky compared to the new 'wonder nines' designed many decades later.

One exception to the capacity rule is if you live in a non-free State (i.e. California) and has to live with restricted magazine capacity (i.e. only 10 rounds) then .45acp may be ok with a double stack gun (e.g. HK USP 45 compact).

That being said, modern ammo technology makes 9mm more than capable to stop 2 legged treats.

Glocks are favored for carry guns because it matches 5 out of the 6 items in my view, only missing the mark (pun intended) on 'Shootability'. I personally never got used to the gritty and weird glock trigger.

I personally like Sig Sauers and HKs, they are really well built but fails a bit on the price category (item 'd'), but fulfill all the others (i.e. Reliability, Shootability, Capacity, Maintenance, Safety).

If I had access to any gun as you mentioned, I would consider either the HK P30 on any of its sizes (L, SK, etc) or alternatively the Sig Sauer P229.

For a 1911 lover, they both are hammer based instead of striker like a Glock.
😀

If you are not used to a DA/SA gun, the HKs can be changed to be single action only (LEM trigger) and the Sig Sauer P229 has the Legion SA model (https://www.sigsauer.com/store/p229-legion-compact-sao.html).

The Sig P229 has 2 advantages over the HK:
a) Better stock trigger: a stock HK trigger is gritty and has some slack. Can be improved with a Match trigger though.
b) Alloy frame: call me old faction, but I like my guns in metal.

The HK has 3 advantages over the Sigs:
a) Safety lever: can be carried cocked and with safety on.
b) Composite frame: is lighter than an alloy frame.
c) Interchangeable backstrap inserts: allows you to adjust the size of the grip.

Whatever you decide to carry, remember to spend time finding a good holster and practicing with the gun + chosen carry ammo in the range.
😀

This is an excellent response and I appreciate you for taking the time to write it for me (us, actually)!

Looking at a range date next week and hoping to narrow down some candidates.

64Wing · Aug 2, 2020

SkunkPrince
And yes, I walk the walk as well as talk the talk.

"She's a beaut, Clark!"

64Wing · Aug 2, 2020

SkunkPrince
This right here makes it clear you don't know what you're talking about the 1911 platform.

No one needs high capacity, except perhaps military and police. The vast majority of the time, just having a gun is sufficient to get the bad guys to run away. Seven rounds is plenty in the gun and ya know what? They make these things called "magazines" that you can replace. (This is not to say that you cannot have high capacity if you want it. Your money. Your choice.)

Yes, the 1911 design is over a centuiry old... because it works. The only time it's "finicky" is some designer who thinks he knows better than John Browning makes it too tight, parts are not to military specification, and owners try to screw with the pistol even more.

The only true 1911 is a pistol built to the originaal Colt blueprints as designed by John Browning. Nothing else is an improvement as a weapon.

Now, sure, people have screwed with the 1911 for other purposes, such as shooting matches and other competitions. But, if you study the original acceptance criteria, they literally dragged that pistol through the mud to make sure it still went bang. It also shoots within three inches at 25 yards (call it 8cm at 25 meters for you metric people).

The only true defensive version of the 1911 is the original. Want some velocity instead of a 230g Federal HST? No sweat. Get a Super .38.

There are as many different guns as people who carry them. The 1911 is one. It's still a good choice.

That is the one point made by @valkyrie_rider that I must admit I do have a problem with. Seems capacity is a sticking point for many of us. I can appreciate both positions. But I just stand I. The camp of 7+1 being plenty. Can always Cary another mag if you really want. But in my mind, if I'm going to be in an urban combat scenario where I'm moving from cover to cover and reloading...it's more likely that the next civil war has begun as opposed to a thug looking for drug money or a shiny car joyride. I just don't see needing 13 rounds.

That said, some of the other points are well made. Especially the part about gritty (read:shitty) Glock triggers! 😜 ::stirthepot::

Anyhow, I'll report back at some point once I take the plunge

valkyrie_rider · Aug 2, 2020

SkunkPrince
This right here makes it clear you don't know what you're talking about the 1911 platform.

Are you gonna say that the typical affordable 1911 (not talking Wilson Combat or heavily modded Kimber with dozens of gunsmithing hours built upon) is *more* reliable than a typical modern 9mm within the *same* price range?
😲

There is a reason *why* the US military dropped the 1911 near 40 years ago for the Beretta M9 (it was supposed to be the Sig Sauer p226 but it lost due pricing) and the Navy Seals carried the p226 Navy (a.k.a. Mk25) until quite recently replacing it for a Glock.

And now the new service pistol is the Sig Sauer p320 (M17, https://www.sigsauer.com/store/p320-m17.html).

The 1911 it is a venerable gun, has serviced this country well for decades but is an outdated design that has to be too loose to properly work (i.e. therefore not precise) or finicky (if made tight) to achieve precision.

The maximum number of rounds I managed to put through a high quality Springfield Armory without any malfunction was < 120. After that, failure to eject/feed was routine and pushed me to clean and lub the gun.

Maybe your 1911 is something else and works flawless every time.

Meanwhile, the Sig was happily going bang! every single time (same operator, same ammo) way past 200 rounds (and the following week, another 200 without being cleaned or lubbed and probably could go 2000 rounds still happily working fine).

I enjoy cleaning my guns, but I enjoy even more actually shooting them.
😀