Snoopy 2025 production issues?

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Day 37: I finally reached the 13th page of the thread exploring the discrepancies and variations of the Silver Snoopy 50th Anniversary subdial zipper lines and boot delineations. Supplies running low. If anyone finds me and reads this please tell my wife I love her.
 
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Day 37: I finally reached the 13th page of the thread exploring the discrepancies and variations of the Silver Snoopy 50th Anniversary subdial zipper lines and boot delineations. Supplies running low. If anyone finds me and reads this please tell my wife I love her.

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Hope we will get the official Omega statement soon…
Surprised we have not heard an official statement yet. By now, pretty sure many folks from all over the world have informed their boutiques of this.
 
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Surprised we have not heard an official statement yet. By now, pretty sure many folks from all over the world have informed their boutiques of this.
I would be amazed if Omega makes any kind of statement regarding these dials.
 
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I would be amazed if Omega makes any kind of statement regarding these dials.

Surprised we have not heard an official statement yet. By now, pretty sure many folks from all over the world have informed their boutiques of this.
All the boutiques/ADs are going to do is offer to send it in for a service. Anyone who sent it in has a minimum of a week or so before the SC will even acknowledge they have the watch, and locals usually take ~1 month on a watch. Given what this is, all of the SCs will either say "thats how they are", or escalate to Omega Switzerland, who will take a few weeks to respond, if at all.

My money: Anyone who advocates for themselves a bit through their AD/Boutique/SCs/etc will get a replacement/service dial if it is available. Omega will not make ANY sort of statement at all, besides replacing them if people send them in, and a dial is available.
 
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My money: Anyone who advocates for themselves a bit through their AD/Boutique/SCs/etc will get a replacement/service dial if it is available. Omega will not make ANY sort of statement at all, besides replacing them if people send them in, and a dial is available.

Exactly where my money is. This was the result of sloppy quality control, and whatever disagreements most of us may have, I think we agree on this point ( the one ErichKeane is making)
 
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I would be amazed if Omega makes any kind of statement regarding these dials.
They don’t typically do this for even bigger issues, so I would be amazed if they said anything here.
 
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Still following…. That said….Honestly, I’m just waiting for the new Snoopy to be announced.
 
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I have some notes. I come from advanced manufacturing in aerospace and have a background in quality control and fabrication. I have no affiliation with any watch brand, but this kind of discussion is right up my alley.



1. I don’t think these differences should be considered quality rejects or rejections or sub-par quality as others have indicated. I will expand on this in punch point #3.

2. I believe Omega is using multiple dies. I have seen a few examples posted that are nearly identical to mine and near the same collection time (24Q3). It would make sense that Omega has 3-4 dies with 1 master die they use as a function tool or test/QA control that is NOT used for production. These may have all been made at the same time, of they (more likely) they have made more dies recently as they decided to continue production past the “assumed” 5yr run. The market is dictating this run, and I think they only initially planned to make 4-5k of these pieces and only planned to have a few dies execute this release. I don’t think they would have more than a handful of these snoopy dies made, and I think it is next to zero likelihood they use a single stamp. These are obviously batch made. Maybe 20x at a time. Maybe 50x. Maybe 100x. I can’t imagine batches being larger than this.

If you look at the differences illustrated above. The "50th" text is wildly different in thickness. and the star pattern doesn’t look exact.

3. Quality Control. As with everything with tight tolerances, it is impossible to make two identical things. Let alone tens of thousands. There are tolerances and acceptance criteria. Yes, Omega has a quality control or quality assurance program, it would be impossible to be as successful as they are without a QA Dept. Is any QA dept 100% no. But again, I don’t view these quality rejects. I will explain why:

What is a tolerance range: If I design a block of cheese in CAD with the dimensions of 1.00” x 2.00” x 3.00”. When I cut the cheese using a tape measure and a sharp knife, I can probably get close with say 1.24” x 1.91” x 3.05. Does it look like 1x2x3” block of cheese? Yes. But if I cut 10x or 100x of these cheese blocks the same way, you will start to notice dramatic dimensional variations between all of my cheese blocks. Let’s reject this lot of cheese because I think my customer that ordered these will not be happy with the precision. Let’s try to control the allowable tolerances (new acceptance criteria) by closing the delta on allowable dimensional deviation to +-0.010”. Ten thou is tricky to hit with a carving knife, so let’s change our manufacturing process to cut these cheese blocks with an endmill on a manual mill. We measure with dial calipers and make as precise as possible cutting paths. But due to the clamping loads from the vise holding the block in place, we deform the blocks slightly to make clean cuts. Our new precision machined cheese blocks are as follows:

SN 001 : x=1.05” y=1.99” z=3.00
SN 002 : x=1.02” y=2.03” z=3.01
SN 003 : x=0.98” y=2.01” z=2.95
SN 004 : x=1.00” y=2.07” z=3.05
SN 005 : x=1.09” y=2.01” z=2.85

We managed to hit decent precision and accuracy to tolerance allowance but SN005 is just a little too out of spec and cannot be corrected. It is scrapped by my pooch (head of QA), Fez.

The takeaway from this exercise is to understand that none of our actual blocks are perfectly 1.000000 x 2.000000 x 3.000000, nor would any reasonable person expect them to be. Our blocks live in a realm of acceptability that are both larger AND smaller than nominal. This is where our snoopy sub-dial medallions live as well.

4. The production process and added complexity with “stack up tolerancing”. As we introduce more and more components and processes with their own tolerances, we get a compound tolerance which can skew our final result further and further from the theoretical nominal or desired outcome. This process begines with stamping a silver plate. Which is a soft metal and unless they are precision ground, are not all going to be perfectly flat or the same exact thickness. This is our 1st tolerance to consider. They are not all the same identical thickness even if they vary by 0.00001”. This will have an effect stamping depth. In the die striking, a prescribed amount of stamping pressure is needed to stamp the silver baseplate. Tolerance #2 is press pressure, this can vary by quite a bit even between first and last striking in a batch as hydraulic fluid heats and the die itself heats up for work. Tolerance #3 is die wearing. Everything wears out, especially things in high pressure applications. A brand-new die will strike deeper than every subsequent strike if all other variables are the same. When a die no longer produces acceptable stamping, it is pulled from service and a new die is swapped into service. Now that we have our stamped snoopy medallions, they need to be blue coated with some type of paint or enamel. The thickness of this coating can vary as well across a single batch depending on how heavy or light handed the application process is. This may be automated, it may not. But even in an automated process, it still will have lighter coated and thicker coated areas across the batch. This is tolerance #4, paint/coating thickness. Lastly, we have a grinding or lapping step. Tolerance #5, lapping depth. We abrade the medallion to remove the highpoints and paint/enamel from the medallion until the silver features start to show through. IF WE KEEP ABRADING, MORE MATERIAL WILL BE REMOVED. We will see certain features such as the zipper and the shoe trace lines start to become less prominent. The inverse is true about the stars in the background, the more the medallion is abraded, the more definition is achieved. This is very easily visible between examples shown. Dials that have diminished snoopy line characteristics appear to have better definition on the stars. And visa-versa. Lightly abraded medallions have better contrasting line work on Snoopy, but the stars look a mess and are barely recognizable as such.

It is important to understand the die geometry for this concept to make sense. Every edge of a feature of the die, any die, must have a positive angle or it will cause damage and undercutting. A die with perpendicular feature edges will not last long and wear out almost immediately. Because of this, when the medallion is abraded deeply, the flat plane of the star features INCREASE in size and definition and the internal Snoopy features DECREASE in size and definition. The three-dimensional structure is more of a pyramid than a block with straight sides. It is wider at its base than it is at its peak. So, the more you abrade, the larger the plane or slice of the projection gets. The same is true with all other features of this stamping.

So, in this production of making these, there is at least 5 easily recognizable manufacturing tolerances that CAN and likely DO have an impact on final presentation. A die that is worn out, that had lower than nominal press pressure, on a medallion that was thinner than normal, than had a heavy coat of paint, that was only deeply abraded will likely yield a snoopy with less defined features. On the other extreme, we can have a medallion that is thicker than nominal, struck with a brand-new die, with a warmed up machine yielding higher press pressure, that gets a thinner than nominal paint coating, that is then lightly abraded yielding an well defined snoopy.

5. Here is my takeaway. None of this really matters to me as an owner and it shouldn’t matter to anyone else really IMO. We are all looking at these under loupes. I have taken hundreds of photos of my snoopy and stared at mine endlessly and NEVER noticed this until people started talking about it. I look down at it and can’t visibly discern any issues with the naked eye. I think this is just standard manufacturing variation. I don’t think these should be graded or thought of as less than. Take a look at Omega Speedies from the past. The Moon to Mars release has WILD variation between sub-dials based on UV exposure and which sub vendor made the printings. Or any of the mission patch releases from the 80’s. Do you think owners ever noticed printing differences and shared high-res macro images to compare and complain about the quality? Absolutely not. You still have a wonderful engineered and executed special release on your wrist. It’s not a FP Journe, relax. Try to keep things in perspective. The distance between the surface of the snoopy and blue painted background is less than a sheet of paper, or 0.0025”. Two and a half thousands of an inch. With all these variables and stack up tolerances involved, I’m surprised they look as good as they do. And it took 5 years for anyone to notice. I would say this is NOT a quality issue. Furthermore. I think the MOST LIKELY explanation is that early on in production, people complained about the definition of the stars, so they started grinding more the image down to get the star resolution up. But sacrificing image definition on internal features to get there. It’s a balancing act. And it all comes down to these stack up tolerances to best case/best image quality. We haven’t seen any examples with NO zipper buttons. And no examples with pinpoint stars (no star point definition) so I believe the acceptance criteria lies between these two features and their depths.

Please see a couple pictures of mine using a 10x loupe on my S22+, collected in Sept 2024 at NYC OB. A serial. I would classify mine as having a "half zipper". Love it still the same. I won’t be complaining to the boutique. This is a non-issue to my eye.

Edited:
 
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@samweldspoorly I agree that most of what you have said is logical and possible, but here's where I diverge: if Omega is using a single master die (hence: master) and a number of dies from that (I agree, likely), it does not make sense that the variations we see between these dies should not have been outright rejected.

A master die should result in dies that are much closer to identical.

Edit: this is partly why I made the joke about early 1800s coins earlier. The sort of variation we are seeing here reminds me of mint runs like the draped liberty bust coins the US mint produced in the 1790s- where it is possible to identify multiple different dies. In 1797, the half dime was struck with multiple variations- within that same year some coins at 13 stars, others had 15, and still others 16. Even the variance of the "ANNIVERSARY" text is reminiscent, as there were text variations between dies.
Edited:
 
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@samweldspoorly I agree that most of what you have said is logical and possible, but here's where I diverge: if Omega is using a single master die (hence: master) and a number of dies from that (I agree, likely), it does not make sense that the variations we see between these dies should not have been outright rejected.

A master die should result in dies that are much closer to identical.
The only thing that makes logical sense to me is, the variation between dies falls inside of their acceptance criteria. They get to set that criteria, not us. And again, if it took 5yrs for customers to even notice, we're talking about very minute differences. If we could measure the depth of a full deep zipper and my half zipper using a silicone positive mold and an optical comparator, I would put money on the delta being less than 0.001" or 0.025mm. Its SUCH a small measurement, we're bordering on micron level measurements in depth.
 
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@samweldspoorly thanks for the informed write-up! I found it interesting. That said, you have the rarest of variations that I’ve seen- the ‘no foot-line and lint artifact’ variation. That lint could be from Charlie Brown himself.

Keep it safe!!
 
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Another phrase I'm sure everyone is familiar with is "diminishing returns". Thought exercise: reject 90% of your snoopy medallions that you produce to ensure as high of quality and narrow your precision window as much as possible. How many dies do you now have to produce for the same 10,000 watches you sell for $10,600? Instead of 3-4 dies, now you need dozens. Instead of 11,000 medallions (assuming some level of QA rejects) , you now have to make 100,000 medallions for the same 10,000 watches. What happens to your profit margin? What then happens when customers complain that it now costs $14,200? But no one can even comprehend where that cost of quality went. In the scrap bin? Omega is in business to make money, not perfection. If you understand that premise, ownership of imperfection is bearable.
Edited:
 
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The only thing that makes logical sense to me is, the variation between dies falls inside of their acceptance criteria. They get to set that criteria, not us. And again, if it took 5yrs for customers to even notice, we're talking about very minute differences. If we could measure the depth of a full deep zipper and my half zipper using a silicone positive mold and an optical comparator, I would put money on the delta being less than 0.001" or 0.025mm. Its SUCH a small measurement, we're bordering on micron level measurements in depth.
I agree, the tolerances on getting all features just right is tiny, Omega has deemed all these dials acceptable. Maybe the acceptable tolerances have widened due to demand, maybe the dies are worn, or something else.
 
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I have some notes. I come from advanced manufacturing in aerospace and have a background in quality control and fabrication. I have no affiliation with any watch brand, but this kind of discussion is right up my alley.



1. I don’t think these differences should be considered quality rejects or rejections or sub-par quality as others have indicated. I will expand on this in punch point #3.

2. I believe Omega is using multiple dies. I have seen a few examples posted that are nearly identical to mine and near the same collection time (24Q3). It would make sense that Omega has 3-4 dies with 1 master die they use as a function tool or test/QA control that is NOT used for production. These may have all been made at the same time, of they (more likely) they have made more dies recently as they decided to continue production past the “assumed” 5yr run. The market is dictating this run, and I think they only initially planned to make 4-5k of these pieces and only planned to have a few dies execute this release. I don’t think they would have more than a handful of these snoopy dies made, and I think it is next to zero likelihood they use a single stamp. These are obviously batch made. Maybe 20x at a time. Maybe 50x. Maybe 100x. I can’t imagine batches being larger than this.

If you look at the differences illustrated above. The "50th" text is wildly different in thickness. and the star pattern doesn’t look exact.

3. Quality Control. As with everything with tight tolerances, it is impossible to make two identical things. Let alone tens of thousands. There are tolerances and acceptance criteria. Yes, Omega has a quality control or quality assurance program, it would be impossible to be as successful as they are without a QA Dept. Is any QA dept 100% no. But again, I don’t view these quality rejects. I will explain why:

What is a tolerance range: If I design a block of cheese in CAD with the dimensions of 1.00” x 2.00” x 3.00”. When I cut the cheese using a tape measure and a sharp knife, I can probably get close with say 1.24” x 1.91” x 3.05. Does it look like 1x2x3” block of cheese? Yes. But if I cut 10x or 100x of these cheese blocks the same way, you will start to notice dramatic dimensional variations between all of my cheese blocks. Let’s reject this lot of cheese because I think my customer that ordered these will not be happy with the precision. Let’s try to control the allowable tolerances (new acceptance criteria) by closing the delta on allowable dimensional deviation to +-0.010”. Ten thou is tricky to hit with a carving knife, so let’s change our manufacturing process to cut these cheese blocks with an endmill on a manual mill. We measure with dial calipers and make as precise as possible cutting paths. But due to the clamping loads from the vise holding the block in place, we deform the blocks slightly to make clean cuts. Our new precision machined cheese blocks are as follows:

SN 001 : x=1.05” y=1.99” z=3.00
SN 002 : x=1.02” y=2.03” z=3.01
SN 003 : x=0.98” y=2.01” z=2.95
SN 004 : x=1.00” y=2.07” z=3.05
SN 005 : x=1.09” y=2.01” z=2.85

We managed to hit decent precision and accuracy to tolerance allowance but SN005 is just a little too out of spec and cannot be corrected. It is scrapped by my pooch (head of QA), Fez.

The takeaway from this exercise is to understand that none of our actual blocks are perfectly 1.000000 x 2.000000 x 3.000000, nor would any reasonable person expect them to be. Our blocks live in a realm of acceptability that are both larger AND smaller than nominal. This is where our snoopy sub-dial medallions live as well.

4. The production process and added complexity with “stack up tolerancing”. This involves stamping a silver plate. Which is a soft metal and unless they are precision ground, are not all going to be perfectly flat or the same exact thickness. This is our 1st tolerance to consider. They are not all the same identical thickness even if they vary by 0.00001”. This will have an effect stamping depth. In the die striking, a prescribed amount of stamping pressure is needed to stamp the silver baseplate. Tolerance #2 is press pressure, this can vary by quite a bit even between first and last striking in a batch as hydraulic fluid heats and the die itself heats up for work. Tolerance #3 is die wearing. Everything wears out, especially things in high pressure applications. A brand-new die will strike deeper than every subsequent strike if all other variables are the same. When a die no longer produces acceptable stamping, it is pulled from service and a new die is swapped into service. Now that we have our stamped snoopy medallions, they need to be blue coated with some type of paint or enamel. The thickness of this coating can vary as well across a single batch depending on how heavy or light handed the application process is. This may be automated, it may not. But even in an automated process, it still will have lighter coated and thicker coated areas across the batch. This is tolerance #4, paint/coating thickness. Lastly, we have a grinding or lapping step. Tolerance #5, lapping depth. We abrade the medallion to remove the highpoints and paint/enamel from the medallion until the silver features start to show through. IF WE KEEP ABRADING, MORE MATERIAL WILL BE REMOVED. We will see certain features such as the zipper and the shoe trace lines start to become less prominent. The inverse is true about the stars in the background, the more the medallion is abraded, the more definition is achieved. This is very easily visible between examples shown. Dials that have diminished snoopy line characteristics appear to have better definition on the stars. And visa-versa. Lightly abraded medallions have better contrasting line work on Snoopy, but the stars look a mess and are barely recognizable as such.

It is important to understand the die geometry for this concept to make sense. Every edge of a feature of the die, any die, must have a positive angle or it will cause damage and undercutting. A die with perpendicular feature edges will not last long and wear out almost immediately. Because of this, when the medallion is abraded deeply, the flat plane of the star features INCREASE in size and definition and the internal Snoopy features DECREASE in size and definition. The three-dimensional structure is more of a pyramid than a block with straight sides. It is wider at its base than it is at its peak. So, the more you abrade, the larger the plane or slice of the projection gets. The same is true with all other features of this stamping.

So, in this production of making these, there is at least 5 easily recognizable manufacturing tolerances that CAN and likely DO have an impact on final presentation. A die that is worn out, that had lower than nominal press pressure, on a medallion that was thinner than normal, than had a heavy coat of paint, that was only deeply abraded will likely yield a snoopy with less defined features. On the other extreme, we can have a medallion that is thicker than nominal, struck with a brand-new die, with a warmed up machine yielding higher press pressure, that gets a thinner than nominal paint coating, that is then lightly abraded yielding an well defined snoopy.

5. Here is my takeaway. None of this really matters to me as an owner and it shouldn’t matter to anyone else really IMO. We are all looking at these under loupes. I have taken hundreds of photos of my snoopy and stared at mine endlessly and NEVER noticed this until people started talking about it. I look down at it and can’t visibly discern any issues with the naked eye. I think this is just standard manufacturing variation. I don’t think these should be graded or thought of as less than. Take a look at Omega Speedies from the past. The Moon to Mars release has WILD variation between sub-dials based on UV exposure and which sub vendor made the printings. Or any of the mission patch releases from the 80’s. Do you think owners ever noticed printing differences and shared high-res macro images to compare and complain about the quality? Absolutely not. You still have a wonderful engineered and executed special release on your wrist. It’s not a FP Journe, relax. Try to keep things in perspective. The distance between the surface of the snoopy and blue painted background is less than a sheet of paper, or 0.0025”. Two and a half thousands of an inch. With all these variables and stack up tolerances involved, I’m surprised they look as good as they do. And it took 5 years for anyone to notice. I would say this is NOT a quality issue. Furthermore. I think the MOST LIKELY explanation is that early on in production, people complained about the definition of the stars, so they started grinding more the image down to get the star resolution up. But sacrificing image definition on internal features to get there. It’s a balancing act. And it all comes down to these stack up tolerances to best case/best image quality. We haven’t seen any examples with NO zipper buttons. And no examples with pinpoint stars (no star point definition) so I believe the acceptance criteria lies between these two features and their depths.

Please see a couple pictures of mine using a 10x loupe on my S22+, collected in Sept 2024 at NYC OB. A serial. I would classify mine as having a "half zipper". Love it still the same. I won’t be complaining to the boutique. This is a non-issue to my eye.

😲