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ewand
·I don't define what is or isn't a "Pogue" but jumping down someone's throat because they don't share the very specific definition that you assert is correct is all a bit
Seiko: Post & Celebrate 50 Years of Automatic Chronographs
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ewand
·
You'd better go and wash your mouth out then, as you're only - apparently - allowed to refer to it as a Pogue if it is a Yellow 6139-6005. 😝
In fact, maybe we should only ever talk about The Pogue as in the one worn by the actual Pogue. Apply the same rule to the Ed White Speedmaster too...
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Tristanp
·One of these
And one of these
And one of these
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Ray916MN
·So, the ridiculous thing is that you're both right. @Ray916MN has a point about being specific. The version the Col wore was actually the 6139-6002 (not the 6005) and those are going to be more sought after than the other variants (say the "Cevert" or 6005 or what have you).
On the flip side, @ewand is spot on too. Any of the 6139's with a yellow dial are going to be called Pogues. Even Michael at Fratello goes on to note "Seiko collectors, while being sticklers for originality like any watch group, have been fairly generous by calling any yellow-dialed 6139 a “Pogue” and when we discuss the market, you’ll note that there’s not a huge amount of price variation amongst the models."
So you're both right.
As for me, I want the 6139-6002. I apprecaite your point @ewand about parts and paying out the nose, but in this case I'll pony up...cause...well, I have a watch problem 🍿
https://www.plus9time.com/blog/2017/12/24/the-true-seiko-pogue-chronograph-6139-6005
SCWF consensus is 6005 too.
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ewand
·SCWF consensus is 6005 too.
"bertnet" - who owns perhaps one of the largest collection of 6139s going, and has even mimicked aspects of the design in real life - even refers to non-yellow-non-6005s as Pogues - eg the Francois Cevert thread on Wristsushi.
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Ray916MN
·I don't define what is or isn't a "Pogue" but jumping down someone's throat because they don't share the very specific definition that you assert is correct is all a bit
No intent to jump down your throat. Just think the Pogue is significant and deserving of specificity in the same way any significant watch/reference is. I disagree with what you characterize as a Pogue, because I can't even tell what the characterization is.
Nothing wrong on the Internet, unless you think you're right and I shouldn't be disagreeing with your characterization.
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ewand
·No intent to jump down your throat. Just think the Pogue is significant and deserving of specificity in the same way any significant watch/reference is. I disagree with what you characterize as a Pogue, because I can't even tell what the characterization is.
Nothing wrong on the Internet, unless you think you're right and I shouldn't be disagreeing with your characterization.
Look, we're all entitled to our opinion. What I object to is the way you replied to my - what I thought was being helpful and sharing at least a little knowledge to help other collectors - post by basically saying "This is just the kind of post I hate, and here are all the reasons why it is WRONG".
How much more constructive would it have been to write, "Well, while lots of people call every -600x a Pogue, arguably it's only a correct term if it's applied to the 6139-6005 just like the one that was worn by Bill Pogue himself. The easy way to tell the difference, is the oft-mistaken -6002 yellow dial has CHRONOGRAPH and AUTOMATIC under the Seiko logo, whereas the "true Pogue" has only AUTOMATIC. We could argue that of the various text markings on the dial, only the "WATER 70m RESIST" variant is really a "Pogue", but life's too short to be splitting hairs like that so why don't we all go back to having a nice day."
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Ray916MN
·Look, we're all entitled to our opinion. What I object to is the way you replied to my - what I thought was being helpful and sharing at least a little knowledge to help other collectors - post by basically saying "This is just the kind of post I hate, and here are all the reasons why it is WRONG".
How much more constructive would it have been to write, "Well, while lots of people call every -600x a Pogue, arguably it's only a correct term if it's applied to the 6139-6005 just like the one that was worn by Bill Pogue himself. The easy way to tell the difference, is the oft-mistaken -6002 yellow dial has CHRONOGRAPH and AUTOMATIC under the Seiko logo, whereas the "true Pogue" has only AUTOMATIC. We could argue that of the various text markings on the dial, only the "WATER 70m RESIST" variant is really a "Pogue", but life's too short to be splitting hairs like that so why don't we all go back to having a nice day."
My apologies for the way I responded. Truth be known I do hate the generic Pogue appellation. Seiko is a much finer brand and company with a much greater history than even its fans generally give it credit for. I hate it when people, such as yourself who appear well informed, support the generalizing of significant watches like the 6139. Zenith in modern times has essentially made an entire brand out of the EP and Omega has made an entire line out of the Speedmaster and its space connection. While the fans of Zenith and Omega pay significant premiums for the early versions of their key references, Seiko collectors barely distinguish their key reference configurations from the versions with much much less relationship to what made the references special. I think it is incumbent on those who understand the differences, to point out what makes the Pogue and the first automatic chronographs different from other 6139s and opposed to broad brushing the 6139.
The point of my response to your post was not to point out how to authenticate and validate a Pogue (I did this years ago on another forum), but rather to point out because people think Pogue=6139-600X, prices for correct Pogues and early 6139s are still relatively cheap. Patience and discernment, can still yield a correct Pogue or early Speed Timer for $500 or less and this is easier to handle than trying to figure out whether every 6139-600X you see for sale is correct and authentic. Prices for correct Pogues and early Speed Timers maybe on the rise given what gets listed on eBay, but almost everything that gets posted as such has significant problems.
I believe the lack of discernment in the Seiko fan community will eventually disappear. When I was started collecting, there were serious debates on forums, about whether any Seiko would ever be collectible or my favorite, how Seiko could have an inhouse movement even though it was a Japanese watch ("when I say inhouse, I mean real inhouse, like the Swiss make"). Eventually correct Pogues and early Speed Timers are likely to be much more sought after and discerned from the rest of 6139 production and priced accordingly as Seiko collectors mature.The Speedmaster went through this years ago. I remember when flown Speedmasters used to just be considered old Speedmasters and people debated whether they should buy an old Speedmaster or a new one as the prices were pretty much the same.
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Ray916MN
·In April of 2009, I bought this off eBay for what was considered to be a high price of $200.
At the time, it was the earliest produced 6139 that had been found. 410th produced in March of 1969. Cleaned up nicely, although I was pissed the watchmaker relumed the dial despite being told not to.
No big deal since, I now have 2/69 produced 6139s and somewhere out there, there is a January '69 produced watch with my name on it.
At the time, it was the earliest produced 6139 that had been found. 410th produced in March of 1969. Cleaned up nicely, although I was pissed the watchmaker relumed the dial despite being told not to.
No big deal since, I now have 2/69 produced 6139s and somewhere out there, there is a January '69 produced watch with my name on it.
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ewand
·My apologies for the way I responded.
Seiko can be both lauded for not crowing about their achievements in bringing the 6139 to market in the face of the Zenith and Chronomatic group, but it also feels like a missed marketing opportunity that they haven't made a lot more noise since, or attached some other name to the family. Imagine if we had a 50th Anniversary 6139-6000 re-edition with yellow dial/pepsi bezel, finished to GS standards? They'd be selling at $4k a pop for sure...
Anyway, back to the matter at hand.
Here's a find I had from a bricks & mortar auctioneer, only a couple of years back...
While scrolling through the listings, I immediately spotted the case shape, bezel etc. Went in to investigate and noticed the PROOF on the dial. Having previously digested the Spring Bar guide and having already scooped a Silver PROOF here on OF, I knew they were a bit unusual and that I liked them a lot. (According to the Sringbar guide, "The silver dialed variation is by far the rarest dial and is even more seldomly seen with a “proof” variation. There are only a few instances of photographed silver "proof" dials.") I now know of 4 or 5 silver PROOFs so that's not true 😀
It wasn't running well but was attended by @Sir Alan, who is a maestro in these things. He brought it back to life, added a couple of extra jewels to offset some wear and to prevent it from escalating, and relumed the dial & hands (to good effect, I think).
So for the committed, there are jewels out there that even when fully sorted, cost less than a Bienne service of a modern Omega.
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Waxtactic
·No big deal since, I now have 2/69 produced 6139s and somewhere out there, there is a January '69 produced watch with my name on it.
2 ??? 😲 . That's awesome. I hate it when a watch shop does something they shouldnt. I had a 6138-0030 Kakume and the guy "retouched" the sweep hand AND in a completely wrong color. Like WTF dude...nobody told you to do that
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Mitka
·Happy birthday my dear 6139-6010AD🥰
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Mitka
·It's literally 50 years this month as the serial dates it to March 69, gave it a service to celebrate😉 check it out https://mitka.co.uk/2019/03/18/one-of-the-first-50-year-old-seiko-calibre-6139a/
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Flatfoot
·This one turns the big "Five-Oh" in June of this year. Check out how the light plays off the dial... lovely.
And the Colonel is reporting for duty below in full uniform:
Agree on the notion of finding nice, correct, unmolested early references while you can.
And the Colonel is reporting for duty below in full uniform:
Agree on the notion of finding nice, correct, unmolested early references while you can.
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