Search for the Oldest Longines - 183. The historically important transitional Comptoir AA4 made 1867

Bernhard J · Jan 11, 2023

This was originally received in German and the screenshot of this email is shwon above. Ms Trummer presumably is not a German nativ speaker.

I understand it in the sense that they do not have any information, because it is a "Raiguel Jne". Their earliest information/archives beginn with serial numbers of watches made under the trademark Longines.

Cheers, Bernhard

Fallout Boy · Jan 11, 2023

I understand it in the sense that they do NOT have any information, because it is a "Raiguel Jne" 😉

cheers, Jochen

Bernhard J · Jan 11, 2023

Hi Jochen,

You are right of course, I corrected it in my posting 😁.

Cheers, Bernhard

Fastback6666 · Jul 26, 2023

A great thread with very interesting reading for early serial number Longines Pocket Watches.

Does anyone have the short list of serial numbers for the known Longines AA4 movements to date?

@Seiji Great work on finding the earliest AA4 Longines timepiece! When you mentioned that Longines don’t fully know which movements are AA4 pieces on the ledger - would they not assume up to a certain serial number (ie.4000 or maybe 5000) that they would all be AA4’s before moving over to 20A movements. Based on real sightings to date.

I would expect that there are probably no sightings of 20A movements with a serial number lower than 4000? To back up the assumption.

Lépine · Jul 26, 2023

No, you can not assume anything with the AA4. The AA4 was not a model or caliber designation created by Longines. I believe it was Patrick Linder that came up with the designation. Officially, the AA4 is a 20A in the ledger, but we know from examples and also the documentation that the 20A was a keyless winding movement. But the factory had many issues that were not resolved for many months after the factory opened. The factory was setup to create only 20A. Until the problems were fully resolved, both AA4 and 20A were sold to customers. The youngest AA4 I am aware of is 3166. There were certainly very early 20A and there were 20A mixed with the Robert Japy based AA4.

If you assume serial number 001 was an AA4. You are just as likely to be incorrect. Documentation shows that an early batch was sent to America. We don't know where they went or what they were. We do know the watches had many quality problems. I assume this is a clue that they were likely not AA4. The AA4 are hand made with hand finished parts. No two will be exactly the same. These watches worked, hence the survival of Longines was entirely dependent on the reputation of the AA4 until they could resolve the quality issues of the 20A with it's assembly line build process.

Fastback6666 · Jul 28, 2023

Seiji
No, you can not assume anything with the AA4. The AA4 was not a model or caliber designation created by Longines. I believe it was Patrick Linder that came up with the designation. Officially, the AA4 is a 20A in the ledger, but we know from examples and also the documentation that the 20A was a keyless winding movement. But the factory had many issues that were not resolved for many months after the factory opened. The factory was setup to create only 20A. Until the problems were fully resolved, both AA4 and 20A were sold to customers. The youngest AA4 I am aware of is 3166. There were certainly very early 20A and there were 20A mixed with the Robert Japy based AA4.

If you assume serial number 001 was an AA4. You are just as likely to be incorrect. Documentation shows that an early batch was sent to America. We don't know where they went or what they were. We do know the watches had many quality problems. I assume this is a clue that they were likely not AA4. The AA4 are hand made with hand finished parts. No two will be exactly the same. These watches worked, hence the survival of Longines was entirely dependent on the reputation of the AA4 until they could resolve the quality issues of the 20A with its assembly line build process.

Thanks for the insight @Seiji to Longines manufacturing issues early on. It seems it was very challenging time.

I do wonder what is the earliest serial number sighted for a 20A is.

Another question of interest: Did you notice if the Longines Ledgers shows continuous serial numbers from 001 through to say 4000? Or are there gaps in serial numbers that you noticed?

I have started to collect some Longines pocket watches over the last 18 months in a more concentrated way, even though I have been collecting pocket watches for 20 years. I will have to post some up when I clean some up. I find generally that Longines pieces are great quality and also have some amazing “Watch art”on cases and dials. Some are generally overlooked by many collectors and they shouldn’t be, I feel some of the models and grades are just not understood well in general collecting circles and this should ideally change.

Thanks.

SpeedyPhill · Jul 28, 2023

Again an interesting topic where amateur sleuths find out much more than the actual " Heritage " teams of a watch brand 👍

Lépine · Jul 28, 2023

F Fastback6666
Thanks for the insight @Seiji to Longines manufacturing issues early on. It seems it was very challenging time.

I do wonder what is the earliest serial number sighted for a 20A is.

Another question of interest: Did you notice if the Longines Ledgers shows continuous serial numbers from 001 through to say 4000? Or are there gaps in serial numbers that you noticed?

I have started to collect some Longines pocket watches over the last 18 months in a more concentrated way, even though I have been collecting pocket watches for 20 years. I will have to post some up when I clean some up. I find generally that Longines pieces are great quality and also have some amazing “Watch art”on cases and dials. Some are generally overlooked by many collectors and they shouldn’t be, I feel some of the models and grades are just not understood well in general collecting circles and this should ideally change.

Thanks.

I do not know the lowest 20A that has been found. You might want to look at the serial numbers for the Oldest India watch, which is noted in this discussion thread.

As far as noting gaps in the LEA. That information is not available to me. Also, the serial numbers are not all listed in LEA or the original archive books. The production ranges for each of the batch runs is listed. A batch could be a single watch or could be 10 watches or other size batch. There are many 6 watch batches for example. So if a watch was destroyed during QA inspection for example, we would not know about that. We also don't know if there were any requirements to start a batch for a customer from a specific serial number such as 500 causing Longines to skip over several numbers. Based on knowledge I have, the likelihood of any numbers skipped intentionally is very very unlikely other than the movement was never sold.

Also quite interesting is within the last two years, a "Longines Farm" member (yes that's what that secret society is called) found an AA3. I have never seen an AA3, we aren't sure of the authenticity, but what was interesting is that the serial number was over a 4 digit range. Not an AA4 but an AAThree