Scammed for $5000 for Omega Speedmaster watch

calalum · Dec 3, 2018

How would the escrow services work? Presumably they are not physically holding the watch, so don't you get into the same risk issues of either the money going at risk or the watch being at risk (with either side being a potential scammer)>

Also, since the bank supposedly knew that the perp had scammed others, I am really surprised that they essentially "chose sides" in giving you the money instead of others. Maybe you were the only one actively complaining.

Njnjcfp88 · Dec 3, 2018

Great ending of a stressful story. I’m sorry OP ( and others here) had to go thru this. I work in financial services ( not Banking) and have heard many iterations of similar stories. At the end of the day- with the “internet of everything”; many bad characters are out there trying to separate us from our hard earned $.... I use my CC ( 3D Visa certified) thru an escrow service and try to negotiate a lower fee from the seller to mitigate fees .... But a great ending here.
Very nice.

Joe_A · Dec 3, 2018

gatorcpa
I agree. However, because of both buyer and seller protections, eBay has gone from being a wholesale to a retail marketplace. That's great for eBay, but bargains become harder to find.

I agree with what you've said.

Bargains are occasionally available still, but are harder to come by.

One can infer that deals were better when they were riskier as in Ebay was once the wild west.

Safe means a bit more expensive. Fees must cover loss costs.

I don't think anyone should expect to have it both ways - better bargains and with complete safety.

Odat · Dec 3, 2018

calalum
How would the escrow services work? Presumably they are not physically holding the watch, so don't you get into the same risk issues of either the money going at risk or the watch being at risk (with either side being a potential scammer)>

Also, since the bank supposedly knew that the perp had scammed others, I am really surprised that they essentially "chose sides" in giving you the money instead of others. Maybe you were the only one actively complaining.

I wonder about that too. Maybe they did give the others their money back too. The guy wouldn’t say much. I’m sure me staying on top of it helped a little.

arcadelt · Dec 3, 2018

gatorcpa
To be fair, I don't think the issue here are just the fees. If you are buying or selling a watch for $1,000 for which the credit card fee is $40 and you can't come to an accommodation regarding the fees, then there must be other issues at play.

That is a fair point, but for a $5000 watch, the fees (based on your $40 per $1000 above) climb to $200, which can be used for something else nice. Many a sale has been lost as a result of a few dollars and many a deal has been lost because minor non-monetary points couldn't be agreed. However, because I tend to do a lot of cross-border transactions, it's not just fees, but the the exchange rate offered by the payment method that comes into play. As an example, if I bought a US$5000 watch today and paid through PayPal G&S, I would pay AU$7055, and probably the seller would probably want to transfer the 3-4% fees to, so another AU$211 to 282. If I can agree to pay using TransferWise, I would only pay AU$6,825, including a small fee. At the 4% PayPal level, that is a saving to me of AU$512. That is not small change.

gatorcpa · Dec 3, 2018

arcadelt
At the 4% PayPal level, that is a saving to me of AU$512. That is not small change.

My point was that if the 4% credit card fees, exchange rate fees, postage, customs or any other fees raise the price above and beyond what you feel comfortable paying based on your perceived value of any item, then the deal doesn't make sense and you should walk away.
gatorcpa

padders · Dec 4, 2018

Gator I think you are rather missing the point that from the seller POV, the issue with payment methods such as PayPal or worse still PP funded by card isn’t the ~4% fee, it’s about the fact that the payment can be recalled. You clearly think it fair that the seller takes 100% of the transaction risk. I don’t, many others too. If there were an easy and reliable way to either remove this risk or spilt it evenly then of course that would be preferable but if I don’t know you*, why should I or any other seller risk losing their item due to a scamming. Allowing payment via a method with can be revoked isn’t a great idea from the seller POV is it? As such if I sell to someone I don’t know who perhaps has zero history then it won’t be using the methods you insist on.

I hope am not a hypocrite though as I have no problem paying by bank transfer or transferwise. I would of course do my homework on the seller first though and try to establish bona fides. Trust but check!

* I don’t specifically mean you as you have a clear history here but I am sure you get my point and even established members can be hacked/spoofed.

Khamenman · Dec 4, 2018

Wow, it took me a while to read the whole 11 pages, but I am glad everything went well. My first watch purchase was also done via wire transfer, but luckily the seller is an honest seller and everything went well. Just a reminder for everyone (that reads this thread) to take extra careful when dealing with buying/selling. But as someone mentioned before, I prefer dealing with OF than eBay, unless it is long standing with positive track-record seller

gatorcpa · Dec 4, 2018

padders
If there were an easy and reliable way to either remove this risk or spilt it evenly then of course that would be preferable but if I don’t know you*, why should I or any other seller risk losing their item due to a scamming.

I hear you and agree with you. However, wire transfers in the US are relatively expensive. They generally run about $25 per transaction, more for international transfers. ACH is generally free depending on the type of account you have, but can only move money to another US account.

In either case, you want the buyer to take all risk. That is your perogative and I respect that.

So you and I will not be doing business I guess.
gatorcpa

padders · Dec 4, 2018

gatorcpa
I hear you and agree with you. However, wire transfers in the US are relatively expensive and you want the buyer to take all risk.

So you and I will not be doing business I guess.
gatorcpa

Yes the situation isn't great. It seems that one party or the other has to take all the risk, there is no middle ground which isn't ideal. Bank transfers within the UK in GBP are fee free and if a currency exchange were needed would cost less than 1% internationally via Transferwise or similar.

Joe_A · Dec 4, 2018

One way to mitigate wire fees is to use a service like Transferwise. They charge about 0.5% for exchanging currencies and transferring money. They are much cheaper than conventional banking.

However; it seems to me that the buyer remains at greater risk then the seller. Ideally, the risk should be a shared risk.

When one reads the information on the Chrono24 site one understands how their escrow program works. As described, Chrono 24 holds the payment funds in escrow until the buyer confirms that the watch has been received and is acceptable - not to be returned. This process does not remove the possibility of scamming on the side of the buyer, but it seems to me that it does help share he risk.

Perhaps there is room in the marketplace for well respected watchmaker/jewelers operating in the country of a buyer to offer a middle-man escrow service for a fee? It seems to me that a trusted third party with basic skills can determine that a watch is as described shortly upon receipt and then to release funds to the seller. But the fee would have to be high enough to make offering such a service worthwhile and such a fee would probably be deemed too high by most.

So that would seem to bring us back to "buyer beware" and "good luck to all."

~ Joe

cholack · Dec 4, 2018

O Odat
Just a little update. The bank ended up refunding me the full amount. They said they were able to freeze his account and that he still had some funds in it. So all is good!. The man said I was lucky as rarely does it ever work out that way. Most scammers withdraw the money immediately. The part that was surprising to me is that he said they rarely ever go after the scammers especially if it’s not a big amount since it would cost them a lot of money to pursue someone legally. Just be careful when dealing with wires!.

Wow! Glad it all worked out

prontoprint · Dec 4, 2018

I remember your post back in March and felt cold after reading it as the nature of buying, and selling , watches is so much based on trust. Especially when dealing with the big ticket items . So it was a pleasure to read that you had the money returned and that you then went and treated yourself to a watch. I think you're the first person I've heard of having a successful dealing with any bank regarding being scammed .

Hats off to you and your persistence .

Larry S · Dec 4, 2018

Wow this thread is a nightmare. Just changed my OF password. Noted.. Transferwise and Escrow.com,,,,,

Larry S · Dec 4, 2018

Larry S
Wow this thread is a nightmare. Just changed my OF password. Noted.. Transferwise and Escrow.com,,,,,

But why is the seller still allowed here on OF? Was his account hacked?

absoluteczech · Dec 4, 2018

Larry S
But why is the seller still allowed here on OF? Was his account hacked?

Yes, it was established on page 2 of this thread

Larry S · Dec 4, 2018

absoluteczech
Yes, it was established on page 2 of this thread

Missed that ...Glad he's in the clear.

arcadelt · Dec 4, 2018

gatorcpa
My point was that if the 4% credit card fees, exchange rate fees, postage, customs or any other fees raise the price above and beyond what you feel comfortable paying based on your perceived value of any item, then the deal doesn't make sense and you should walk away.
gatorcpa

It not so much about comfort with the total cost, but trying to get the best deal I can balanced against risk. Fees and taxes are transaction on-costs, and I want to minimise or avoid those if I can. The ideal transaction would be face-to-face where cash is exchanged for the goods and the risk is extremely low, but in my circumstance that is extremely rare.

fskywalker · Dec 4, 2018

O Odat
Just a little update. The bank ended up refunding me the full amount. They said they were able to freeze his account and that he still had some funds in it. So all is good!. The man said I was lucky as rarely does it ever work out that way. Most scammers withdraw the money immediately. The part that was surprising to me is that he said they rarely ever go after the scammers especially if it’s not a big amount since it would cost them a lot of money to pursue someone legally. Just be careful when dealing with wires!.

Great news!!!!

asrnj77 · Dec 5, 2018

O Odat
Just a little update. The bank ended up refunding me the full amount. They said they were able to freeze his account and that he still had some funds in it. So all is good!. The man said I was lucky as rarely does it ever work out that way. Most scammers withdraw the money immediately. The part that was surprising to me is that he said they rarely ever go after the scammers especially if it’s not a big amount since it would cost them a lot of money to pursue someone legally. Just be careful when dealing with wires!.

I think what happens is that the scammers often use hacked bank accounts of unwitting people. It would be a simple paper trail if the scammer used their own account. Then they take out the funds before the person realizes. What might have happened is that the account owner realized the account was hacked and either changed passwords or notified the bank before funds could be withdrawn. Either way good outcome for you and glad it worked out.

Scammed for $5000 for Omega Speedmaster watch

calalum

Njnjcfp88

Joe_A

Odat

arcadelt

gatorcpa

padders

Khamenman

gatorcpa

padders

Joe_A

cholack

prontoprint

Larry S

Larry S

absoluteczech

Larry S

arcadelt

fskywalker

asrnj77

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