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SAS Polarouter - Black Dial

Mazoue
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Diabolik Diabolik
Looks like it is doing the rounds. Sorry, that's a franken and should be advertised as such ...

For those that don't already know, Claremont Vintage is the name of my website through which I sell watches on a part-time basis as a hobby.

This watch is not doing the rounds. As explained at the beginning of this thread, I bought the watch at auction and have owned it since, having had it serviced along the way.

Anyone who has enquired about the watch has received a very detailed e-mail explaining its pros and cons. I have been entirely honest about the watch from the outset, subjecting it to scrutiny on this forum before I'd even received it.
 
Mazoue
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Diabolik Diabolik
Looks like it is doing the rounds. Sorry, that's a franken and should be advertised as such ...

Since you have described the watch as a "franken", I think it is only fair to ask that you provide an explanation or evidence to support this allegation.

- It has an HF Polarouter case with 6-key case back and signed crown
- The chapter ring with narrow hour markers is consistent with this
- The lumed hands (recently relumed) are consistent with the 20217-4 case reference and the seconds hands is also genuine
- The serial number is around 200 lower than another known SAS Polarouter
- The dial is a UG dial made by Stern Freres and is stamped as such on the reverse
- The printing of the SAS text and emblem in gold is identical in every detail to the printing on an SAS Polarouter with full provenance
- The SAS text and emblem has been printed in exactly the same position on the dial as that same SAS Polarouter
- The Universal Geneve Automatic text is printed in the lower half of the dial as only seen on other SAS Polarouters and in a UG typeface

Given all the things that are right about this watch, I would be interested to know why you are sure that the watch is not genuine. I would also be interested to know when you think this fabrication might have been created.
 
10H10
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Gee ! What a fight and thanks for the infos, now I know how to make my black sas dials correctly, sorry for the first execution 馃槈
 
10H10
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Docthomas Docthomas
Thank you very much!
These Universal Gen猫ve are really awesome and fascinating.
And disturbing...馃槣
 
Mazoue
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For those of you that followed the debate over the black dialled SAS Polarouter, you may recall that reverse of the dial had a Stern Freres stamp
of "94*076" on the reverse.
media1.jpg


The picture below is of a dial from a 20217-6 SAS Polarouter. You'll notice that it has the exact same markings.
media.jpg


In my opinion, the black dial was most likely a test dial before it was decided to use blank ink on a white dial. Whether or not it started life in this particular Polarouter case, or in fact any case, we will never know.

I am sure that those of you that were cynical about the dial/watch will remain unconvinced. I have no interest in persuading you any longer as I sold the watch to a very happy collector some time ago.

I do think we are all sometimes a little quick to jump to conclusions. Just because we have not seen something before, it does not necessarily mean that it is wrong.
 
Modest_Proposal
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Mazoue Mazoue
I have no interest in persuading you any longer as I sold the watch to a very happy collector some time ago.

Interesting way to put it...
 
Mazoue
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Modest_Proposal Modest_Proposal
Interesting way to put it...

Thank you. You are absolutely right @Modest_Proposal, I expressed that very poorly.

I have always believed this dial/watch to be genuine and from an academic point of view, I will always remain interested in the watch. What I meant to convey was that I no longer have a vested interest in convincing anyone about this dial - it does not benefit me personally.
Edited:
 
Diabolik
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Mazoue Mazoue
For those of you that followed the debate over the black dialled SAS Polarouter, you may recall that reverse of the dial had a Stern Freres stamp
of "94*076" on the reverse.
media1.jpg


The picture below is of a dial from a 20217-6 SAS Polarouter. You'll notice that it has the exact same markings.
media.jpg


In my opinion, the black dial was most likely a test dial before it was decided to use blank ink on a white dial. Whether or not it started life in this particular Polarouter case, or in fact any case, we will never know.

I am sure that those of you that were cynical about the dial/watch will remain unconvinced. I have no interest in persuading you any longer as I sold the watch to a very happy collector some time ago.

I do think we are all sometimes a little quick to jump to conclusions. Just because we have not seen something before, it does not necessarily mean that it is wrong.

Not quite sure what that proves or disproves ...

However, everything that there was to be said has been said. Nothing more to add. Hopefully the buyer will be well aware of what he has and enjoy it for what it is ...
 
CafeRacer
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Two examples now have surfaced, on different continents, and both from what looks to be non-collectors.
It looks to be the same dial, inside different model references (20217-4 and 20214-4).
One is a first execution (164 serial) and the other a second execution (168 serial).
Both are -4 references (lume should be on both the dial and the hands), however one example has lumed hands, and the other does not.

The most unusual thing about this gold capped one, to me, is that the serial number (1648118) lies way outside the range expected for a 20214-4 (1649039 to 1649098).
The serial lies in the range expected for a 20217-3 (1648027 to 1648151).
https://universalgenevepolerouter.com/reference-tables/reference-table-steel-gold-plated/
Perhaps it could have been a custom order, and they took whatever serial they were up to then?
In this case, there would probably have been a minimum production number (they were printed, not engraved).
EDIT: SERIAL turned out to be 1649118, which is just past the latest serial in the ex1 20214-4.

More questions, and more speculation of course... 馃榾
Edited:
 
Mazoue
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Whilst I'm gutted to have missed out on this one, I am absolutely delighted to see another and I think the dial looks fantastic in the gold capped case.

With my example in hand, I felt certain that it was genuine and the evidence uncovered relating to the dial only convinced me further.

Let's hope a few more examples crop up and we can find out a little more about them.
 
jumpingsecond
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Good old universal geneve... the ultimate mystery novel of watches. An incredible story but even then the last few pages are missing.
 
Diabolik
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Pics posted are pretty bad. It is impossible to judge using those pics as reference. I would like to see a set hi def pics of dial in order to make some sort of assessment. However, findings on previous dial, are pretty conclusive. There are many fake dials out there. Finding 1, 2 or more, does not make all dials legit. There could be a thousand reasons why there are multiple copies of the dial as a template would be needed for one or many copies.
 
Mazoue
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Diabolik Diabolik
Pics posted are pretty bad. It is impossible to judge using those pics as reference. I would like to see a set hi def pics of dial in order to make some sort of assessment. However, findings on previous dial, are pretty conclusive. There are many fake dials out there. Finding 1, 2 or more, does not make all dials legit. There could be a thousand reasons why there are multiple copies of the dial as a template would be needed for one or many copies.

So, just to be clear, you still believe that these dials are more likely to be fakes than not?

I am not asking you whether we have definitive proof but to offer your opinion on the balance of probabilities.
 
bgrisso
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CafeRacer CafeRacer
Two examples now have surfaced, on different continents, and both from what looks to be non-collectors.
It looks to be the same dial, inside different model references (20217-4 and 20214-4).
One is a first execution (164 serial) and the other a second execution (168 serial).
Both are -4 references (lume should be on both the dial and the hands), however one example has lumed hands, and the other does not.

The most unusual thing about this gold capped one, to me, is that the serial number (1648118) lies way outside the range expected for a 20214-4 (1649039 to 1649098).
The serial lies in the range expected for a 20217-3 (1648027 to 1648151).
https://universalgenevepolerouter.com/reference-tables/reference-table-steel-gold-plated/

Perhaps it could have been a custom order, and they took whatever serial they were up to then?
In this case, there would probably have been a minimum production number (they were printed, not engraved).

More questions, and more speculation of course... 馃榾

I thought that is three now, doesn't @Lucas have a gold cased example?
 
Mazoue
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bgrisso bgrisso
I thought that is three now, doesn't @Lucas have a gold cased example?

He claimed to have one but sadly wasn't willing to share a photo.
 
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