Both Black dial serials are later than the White dial SAS 20217-6 range.
That would exclude the watches being prototypes, but not necessarily the loose dials.

 

I agree entirely with this analysis.

To me, the dials are almost beyond dispute although I appreciate that others still have some concerns.

Whether they started life in the cases in which they were found is another question altogether and I completely accept that.

Given the known history of both watches, one thing I do believe is that the dials were not added to these cases in recent years. For example, the watch I found was in a mixed lot at auction in France with some unrelated unremarkable watches - the seller was clearly not trying to make a quick profit.

 

I'm actually not even sure what the definition of a prototype is, or if there is even an agreed upon standard, but why couldn't they create a black dial prototype after the white dial versions had already been around? Maybe I'm missing something obvious?

 

Good point.

I am also concerned with :

1. Quality of logo and print which is significantly inferior when compared to UG SAS or ****router references
2. I keen banging on about the lack of Polarouter
3. Swiss at six
4. Later -4 (instead of special edition may I call them -6) cases excludes prototypes then ?
5. Weird combination of hands
6. One Matt and one Gloss dial ?
7. Print seems to be on top of corrosion rather than corrosion breaking through on Matt dial and differences in print quality between the Gloss and Matt dial

The rogue dial could be the most plausible which eventually found their way into cases and were later assembled with whatever parts came about. Can we date the movements on the black Pol*routers (don't really know what they are at this point) ?

 

I'm not aware of any way to date a Cal 138ss movement but I agree that would be helpful.

The cases are definitely Polarouter cases.

- They have the relevant case reference for a Polarouter
- The serial numbers are within the (relatively narrow, say 100-150) expected range for the particular case reference
- The case backs have the six key case back seen on Polarouters rather than the later polygonal case back seen on bumper Polerouters
- Both watches have marker rings that are unique to Polarouters

Whilst I understand some of the concerns expressed about the dials, the main questions that remain for me are

1) Why were the black SAS dials produced and how many were made?
2) How long have these two dials been in the Polarouter cases in which they were found?

This has been my long held position.

 

You are assuming they were produced. We are not there yet as there is not a consensus that they rolled out of a production line. This is an global attempt at determining if what we see is a UG/Stern produced and printed dial. I went through @Severin 's post on UG Polarouter and Polerouter dials and it raises further doubts in my mind.

https://omegaforums.net/threads/pol...-a-brief-survey-with-some-observations.35888/

Without going off on a tangent, please read through. I want to establish if your observations mirror mine without leading you on ...

Perhaps @Severin could chime in as he seems to have a great deal of experience and knowledge on the Polarouter and Polerouter references.

 

You are right, I am assuming that the dials were produced by Stern but in my defence, I did recognise the concerns that you and others have.

The work undertaken by @Severin was monumental at the time and I would not want to do anything to belittle or undermine that. However Polerouter knowledge has come on in leaps and bounds in the four years since his post.

What @Severin started, @CafeRacer has taken on several steps in creating a reference website, highlighting the differences between each of the case references. Many of the differences and nuances that @Severin identified are now understood and can be explained.

I look at numerous Polerouters every single day and discuss them with other collectors most days (on re-reading, this sounds completely insane). I've owned over 200 Polerouters myself and studied thousands more. I would be the first to admit that there are probably still more questions than answers but I am certain that our knowledge has moved on a great deal in recent years.

The black SAS dials are non-standard and may not even have been intended for use. It is hardly surprising that they do not follow all of the patterns exhibited by other dials.

 

Yes, agree. Things may have moved on but the solid foundations established by @Severin is still pretty much our pillar and apply ...

As far as the Black SAS dials not complying and may not have been intended for use, brings the question as to what the intention was if not to evaluate and build a black SAS and if that was the case, why was it not a -7 (instead of a later serial -4). If they were not intended for use, what was the purpose of the dials ? If it was an experiment, it would have been a pointless one!

@Lucas , please show us yours ...

Opened up my Monodatic and no serial numbers on 138 movements ...

 

My own personal theory, for which I am able to offer no evidence whatsoever, is that these black SAS dials were created as test dials.

Had they been the preferred option at the time, then we might have seen the 20217-6 with a black SAS dial instead of a white one. But it was decided (By Stern/UG/SAS) to use a white SAS dial. Perhaps some refinements to the design were made following this test phase, which could explain why the text on the white SAS dials is very slightly different to the black dials.

These test dials were then consigned to a drawer or perhaps added to a spare case at the time.

I accept that this is all pure supposition.

As interesting as this thread is, I'd better get on with the day job. I'll leave you to continue to mull it over.

 

JB bracelet, gold on gold

 

Another one?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/202985793259Purchases made through these links may earn this site a commission from the eBay Partner Network

 

Its the same watch.

 

No feedback on this seller ? Selling a Nina, steel Patek, Etc...Wow ! Daytonas too !

 

the geophysic full set is my personal favourite, or the seaplane Patek.

The seller has an interesting username too, windwatches

 

https://www.windvintage.com/universal-geneve-sas

 

His name is Eric Wind and I would say he is one of the most well-known vintage watch dealers out there.

 

Yes Eric is selling it for me, I didn't realize he was on ebay now, that must be a new thing?

 

Where’s the Catalogue obsessed Debbie downer?

 

Why would Eric Wind list this watch as dating to circa 1960, when clearly it must date to 1954, or maybe 1955? Is that an eBay thing, to underestimate and thereby avoid buyer complaints later?

 

7k usd excl. fees. Auction ends on Saturday.

https://www.kaplans.se/sv/auktioner/3703/vara/1630441