I frequently see listings on ebay for a nice looking vintage watch that "will run for a minute or two and stops".
-Is there anything in particular that this usually means?
-Is it a condition that is likely cleared up by a professional cleaning, service, or repair?
-And is there an approximate dollar amount that can be associated with the remedy?

 

1 - needs service
2- yes
3 - no idea until you know specifically what is wrong

It could be as simple as just needing a proper cleaning, oiling, or it may needs parts that could range in price from a few dollars to hundreds depending on the watch.

 

Thanks!
If a '67 GTO turns over but doesn't start, it's either a problem with spark or fuel, and even if I take my car to the shop for repairs I'm far better off if I understand the system and remedies. Since the watches are not incredibly complex devices (far fewer parts than the automobile I understand), there must be a limited number of simple causes for such a condition. Is there a good online resource where I can learn about the reasons for problem behaviors?

 

The car analogy is a good one. If the watch is running erratically, it means you have an issue with the movement. Now you just need to figure out which components. Kind of like when the motor is running poorly and you have to tear it down, measure all the parts and inspect for wear, replace what is out-of-spec, etc.

 

Unfortunately you can't become a watchmaker by watching youtube.

 

I always assume any watch I buy on eBay will need a service and bid with that cost in mind, even if it says “serviced”-who did it, when, to what extent? Did they spray lighter fluid in it then oil the balance to get it running (this is not a joke-i have heard of this).
If it’s running (pics show second hand movement from pic to pic), and it’s cheap enough I bid and take the gamble, if it more expensive I will ask about how long they ran it etc. I did get burned by this once with a trench watch that was “running”, and I asked about it and they said it kept time.
When I got it, it only ran in 2 positions and did indeed keep time in those positions, but as soon as you moved it around it stopped. Most likely they tested it in one-laying on its case back- which implies a broken balance staff...so off to the watchmaker it will go and hopefully they will be able to get a replacement part (AS movement so pretty abundant).
Agreed that it could be as simple as the seller didn’t know to wind it, or that it says automatic and they shake it and it runs for a few seconds and it runs then stops, it’s alwyas a roll of the dice unless they are a regular watch seller.

But @Observer, as you know with cars, sometimes what seems like a strait forward issue could be symptomatic of a problem further up stream. With electronics, a blown fuse is a blown fuse-but why did the fuse blow, and if it does it again, then where is the problem.

 

In essence what you are saying here is "You don't know how much you don't know" and that's exactly what the watchmakers and others here are telling you also. Dunning-Kruger effect - people believe they know more about a subject or how something works than they actually do...

Maybe you will, but understanding the "subsystems" isn't going to answer any of the three questions you have asked in your first post. So by all means I encourage everyone here to learn more about how a watch works, but that's not going to tell you if a watch is worth buying with the description you have referred to. Here's a very good video that explains the very basics of how a watch works:

There are a large number of possible problems that will lead to the description of "runs a few seconds and stops", and that makes that description virtually useless as a diagnostic indicator. If you are truly looking for advice on how to spot problems with watch movements, there is already a thread I created here to help people use photos in an advertisement to get a feel for what might be wrong with a given movement in a watch you are considering, so have a look at this:

https://omegaforums.net/threads/spotting-problems-with-watch-movements.36339/

As noted by BlackTalon, you need to tear the movement down, clean everything, and inspect it all. Trust me I've rebuilt machine tools the size of a semi-trailer that weighed 35,000 pounds, and watch movements as small as the tip of your finger, and the process is the same...

Tear the mechanism down
Clean it thoroughly
Inspect (to do this properly requires a microscope in the case of a watch movement)
Determine the three R's - Reuse, Repair, or Replace

If your goal is to estimate how much it might cost to get a movement with this vague description running properly, that is not something you are going to learn by understanding subsystems. To know that you not only need to know what parts are going to require replacing, but what those parts cost, and those costs vary wildly even between different movement of the same brand. For example modern Omega parts for say the Cal. 1120 (ETA 2892 base) are much cheaper than they are for a vintage watch movement like a Cal. 565 - train wheels on one are more than twice what they are on another.

Here's an example - unless you tear the watch down, clean the movement parts and put them under a microscope, you aren't going to see the wear on this balance pivot:



Here's the good end:


​

Now once you determine that the staff is bad, you would need to know if a new staff is available, or if you will be forced to purchase an entire balance complete, and that alone could mean hundreds of dollars difference in the cost of the service.

Note that a fault like this isn't even going to cause the "runs for a few seconds and stops" fault that you are referring to.

Again, you don't know how much you don't know...there is no easy answer here, as much as you might want to believe there is...

Cheers, Al

 

@Archer Thanks for Your response (and patience). I watched the Hamilton video last night. Thanks also for the link to the previous thread. I've read some of your others and they've been a great help. I know that the more I learn the more I'll realize what I don't know, and I'm not expecting anything to come easy. It wouldn't be as enjoyable if it did. I still suspect that some causes of problems are more likely than others, and knowing the odds and the associated costs will make it easier to spot worthwhile deals. I'll have to satisfy myself that I'm wrong about that.

 

I’ve seen this same thing mentioned on a couple of vintage movados I was looking at. I almost bought one but the seller sells only watches and when I asked if they had any idea what the issue is they claimed they didn’t. That may very well be true but on other watches they sell they always state “ we professionally service each watch” I figured it may be more costly then they cared to do so I backed off.

 

I have learned to read between the lines too. I recently purchased a fantastic chronograph of the type I had wanted for ages. It wasn’t worth much (around $400), and one of my trusted sellers listed it, so I went ahead and bought it as I have never had an issue with his watches before and he usually sells them serviced (he has a watchmaker he uses).
Well, I didn’t read the fine print and he listed it as “all functions working well”...but not serviced. When I got it, it ran great for 3 hours then quit. Luckily he is an honorable dude and willing to have his watchmaker look at it (I offered to go in on the cost of serviced just to have it done properly as I really love it. I’m sure that the cost of having it serviced, plus his cost of buying it, prepping for sale with a new decent quality strap- which he always does- plus eBay/PayPal fees, would exceed the value of what he could ask for it..so he sold it as-is and rolled the dice.
It’s always a gamble with vi rage watches, as said before in this forum many times- buy the seller, not the watch....otherwise it’s Russian roulette.

 

The GTO needs 4 things: spark, fuel, compression, and timing. Just sayin'.

Starting and running for a few seconds is a very common symptom with the old military watches I buy, service, etc. When I see or hear it, I hope it's just dirt and old oil/no oil. That's a likely cause of at least part of the problem. If it winds fully and won't run, it's not the mainspring. But if jewels are damaged or as Mr. Archer showed, parts are worn causing excessive friction, or if the "end shake" isn't quite right, all those things can cause stoppage. In fact, on an old Elgin pocket watch I recently opened, I was happy to see the balance swung freely and looked great. I let myself think just a cleaning and oiling, and it's back in business. Upon inspection, the fourth wheel pinion (sub seconds) had the tip broken off, so I needed a part, and it took a lot of searching to find it. It's all better now. If the watch lay on its back and wasn't disturbed, it would actually run for 10 seconds or so with the broken part. So you see, there are many potential reasons for your start and stop. You can read and read and definitely gain some understanding of the train from MS to balance, but without the mentorship of someone with experience, it's unlikely you'd have much luck repairing your watch, even if it only needs cleaned. You'll find putting those tiny parts back in as they should be is not as simple as replacing an alternator or water pump on a 350 small block. But I always encourage anyone to dive into any repair project. ( but maybe keep your first watches as simple as possible. Pocket watches are good practice and much larger parts) Just take care, and work in an area where parts aren't lost as easily. Take some photos as you work and share them.

 

I'll add that I've bought a number of watches that "ran for a few seconds and stopped." Everything from the seller not knowing he needed to actually wind it...to a broken mainspring...to rust in the movement (oof. Ended up needing a full donor movement)...to one worn out out part or another. Probably 5-6 watches I've bought with that same basic diagnostic issue. None of them have had the same cause.

I just always assume I'll need a service when I buy a vintage watch and try to be slightly on the pessimistic side to account for potential issues. If it doesn't run properly I assume replacement parts are going to be needed. Better to be pleasantly surprised than the other way around. But there's really no way to know just from that small piece of information what the issue is. There are things that are more complicated than watches, but without the experience of an actual watchmaker disassembling the watch and examining the parts, it's a bit of a crapshoot.

 

And that right there is why there is no real answer. It's pretty much impossible to judge from such a basic and generic description.

For example most would assume that if a watch is not running, there's likely more wrong with it than a watch that "runs for a few minutes and stops" but some of the nicest vintage pocket watches I've bought have not been running at all. They appear to have been bought, run until the old natural oils gummed up, stopping the movement, and then stuck in a drawer. They didn't run long enough for anything to get worn or broken. With a proper cleaning they parts were all pristine - just required cleaning lubrication, and they were ready to go.

On the flip side I've seen watches advertised as "keeping time within Omega specs" and other "good" descriptions that were complete basket cases. For example the worn staff in the photos above comes from a watch that was sold with the description "watch is running and keeps good time" and it was clearly not, at least when I received it.

 

So it really is just a roll of the dice. What range of costs should be expected to bring a watch to proper working order? Assuming it’s not a chronograph.

 

Yup! To use your car analogy, what we do on eBay and auction sites is the equivalence of buying a car sight unseen. You see a picture of a 1971 Benz 280sl at a what seems like a steal and the description says “runs well” or “turns over then stops”, and we hit buy it now. It’s actually madness. You have no clue of the service history, rust issues, electrical gremlins, etc. that thing could be a barn find gem, or a money pit- same thing but on a smaller scale both economically (unless we are talking about the rarities which can cost as much as a 280sl), and physically.
I guess when we’re talking about a $200-2k watch we are more inclined to roll the dice than a $50k car or watch.

 

Using a seller's description as the sole indicator of what is wrong with the watch is certainly rolling the dice. But there are things you can do to help mitigate (but not really eliminate) the risks. Understanding how to spot problems from the photos of the movement that seller's may post is the big one, and the reason I posted the thread I've linked to above.

 

Knowing that I'm likely to spend $200-$900 (that's a guess) to get a used watch squared away, even if it's reported to be in good working order, are my chances better in the higher price ranges? It seems we're better off spending $500 to fix a $2K+ watch than a $1K watch.

 

I read it and have already spotted some issues you mentioned (wear from a loose rotor) in auction photos. Thanks for that. I'd like to find a sticky linking to "Archer's greatest hits".

 

It depends on what the purpose of buying the watch is...

If you are trying to buy watches cheap, fix them up and flip them for profit, then yes the cost of service is going to be a smaller overall percentage of the outlay for a more expensive watch, and will have a much smaller impact on the ability to sell the watch at a profit. So for example if you buy a Speedmaster reduced, service it for $750, and try to get your money out of it after service, you may not be making any money. If you buy a 2915, service it and flip it, the cost of the service is not going to be huge in relation to the dollars (pounds, euros, or whatever) that are going to be changing hands.

If you are buying the watch to keep and enjoy it, and are less concerned with what you have into it and how that relates to the market value, the only thing that is important is if the final price is something you feel is worthwhile for the watch you want.

I have no idea what camp you fall into - one or the other or somewhere in between.