Repairing dial feet ... yes, again

Dan S · Oct 13, 2019

Apologies for those who feel this has been beaten to death, but I would like to revive this perennial topic in case there is a new technique or tool, or someone who has become very proficient in this skill in the past couple of years.
As far as I can tell, it is still a bit of a dilemma.

As has been mentioned previously, using double-sided sticky tape (or dial dots) to attach the dial to the movement doesn't feel like a "proper" repair. On the other hand, even using the correct soldering tool (or a laser), damage to the paint side of the dial is apparently still a substantial risk. So it's hard to contemplate risking damage to the dial (and potentially losing 1/3 of the watch's value) when it can still be attractive and functional with the help of some sticky tape.

My sense after reviewing the threads on several different forums is that a major factor is the experience and skill of the person attempting the repair, which makes a lot of sense. He would need to be aware of the best type of tool, materials and solder for the particular job, experienced at positioning the feet correctly, and familiar with the least invasive approach. Someone who does repairs like this a few times a week would probably have a much better success rate than someone who does it a few times a year.

If you know of someone who has developed a bit of a speciality in dial feet repair, I'd be grateful for the suggestion. Please feel free to PM me if you're not comfortable posting in the open forum.

mzinski · Oct 13, 2019

I totally agree! Dial dots and glues are the worst! Well, maybe not the worst, but personally I’m not a fan.
I also read the dial feet machines are risky as they can overheat the solder location resulting in a mark on the dial.
Because of this I searched out another technique and found one. The basic principle is similar to sweating plumbing pipes.
First I clean and prep the dial. I etch a small circle with a drill bit to provide a depression for solder. I then position a long copper wire in place with a helping hand. Flux is applied to the wire and back of dial. Then I use a high lead content, very low melting point soldering wire. I cut a small bit and wrap it at the base of the wire. To heat I use a butane torch to heat the wire to the point of melting the flux, a couple brushes of the flame over the back of dial, and viola! New dial foot. It does require some filing to clean up the solder but all and all I find it to be lower risk then soldering machines. Even with the open flame.
The hardest part is locating the dial foot and maintaining position.
I’ll do one on a test dial and post some pictures later tonite to accompany my narrative.

JwRosenthal · Oct 13, 2019

mzinski
I totally agree! Dial dots and glues are the worst! Well, maybe not the worst, but personally I’m not a fan.
I also read the dial feet machines are risky as they can overheat the solder location resulting in a mark on the dial.
Because of this I searched out another technique and found one. The basic principle is similar to sweating plumbing pipes.
First I clean and prep the dial. I etch a small circle with a drill bit to provide a depression for solder. I then position a long copper wire in place with a helping hand. Flux is applied to the wire and back of dial. Then I use a high lead content, very low melting point soldering wire. I cut a small bit and wrap it at the base of the wire. To heat I use a butane torch to heat the wire to the point of melting the flux, a couple brushes of the flame over the back of dial, and viola! New dial foot. It does require some filing to clean up the solder but all and all I find it to be lower risk then soldering machines. Even with the open flame.
The hardest part is locating the dial foot and maintaining position.
I’ll do one on a test dial and post some pictures later tonite to accompany my narrative.

I did electronics repair for years in some very sensitive places (like near/in plastic or Bakelite parts) and the idea was the same as mzInski’s- low temp solder and a heat sink of some sort to wick the heat away from the fragile parts.
Look forward to seeing how that applies to watches.

M'Bob · Oct 13, 2019

Just went through this with a very expensive dial. Two very experienced laser welders said there was a 50/50 chance of damage to the dial if they attempted a repair. Do you feel lucky? (Apologies to Clint...)

Dan S · Oct 13, 2019

M'Bob
Just went through this with a very expensive dial. Two very experienced laser welders said there was a 50/50 chance of damage to the dial if they attempted a repair. Do you feel lucky? (Apologies to Clint...)

I'm in a similar situation. People have been giving me more favorable estimates, but who really knows. What did you decide to do?

mzinski · Oct 13, 2019

The butane torch technique is not without risk either - particularly on matte black dial. These are fairly sensitive to heat and the matte finish can gloss/smooth over if too much heat is applied. If this occurs it can be possibly be remedied.
On to photos and technique:
Blank semi-gloss black dial bought off eBay.

First lightly drill location to slightly recess for new dial foot. I find this helpful as solder can fill the recess for a better connection.

Recessed countersink.

I then lightly score around the countersink to make sure no paint or otherwise prevents it binding.

Apply some flux to the back of dial.

Apply flux to copper wire. Make sure to get the right gauge wire to fit the movement. Use a helping hand to position the wire and free up your hands.

Plumb the wire from all directions. You want it to be vertical.

Cut I small piece of solder (low melting point, high lead content) and wrap it around the base of the wire.

Apply heat to the wire about 1” - 1.5” above the dial. Once the flux sizzles and melt apply a few glancing sweeps of heat to the wire/dial connection. The solder will suck up into the connection. Remove heat immediately. I blow on it for good measures but I’m not sure if that does anything.

Raw solder connection.

Clean up solder with a file and xacto knife. It’s important to smooth out so it doesn’t interfere with any parts of the movement.

Here’s the front side of the dial - no damage.

Yes, the dial foot is not the same profile as a factory applied one - neither is a dial dot.

Like I said this technique is not without risk. I have found it is easier done on dial like a champagne DateJust or like-finished dials. Would I do this to a 1930’s Universal Geneve Compur with a lot of fragile paint and radium spots? Probably not. Would I do it to an Omega Speedmaster Reduced with rusted off dial feet? Yes, I all ready did.
Anyways, hope this provides you with some additional alternatives to think about when consider new dial feet.

Dan S · Oct 13, 2019

@mzinski

Thanks for that great detail. I was just looking into bismuth-tin alloys, and found that the 58% Bi / 42% Sn eutectic alloy melts at only 140 Celsius, but has very similar mechanical properties (e.g. Young's modulus and tensile strength) at room temperature as standard 60/40 tin-lead alloy (which melts at about 188 C). Even the lowest temperature tin-lead alloy melts at 183 C.

mzinski · Oct 13, 2019

Dan S
@mzinski

Thanks for that great detail. I was just looking into bismuth-tin alloys, and found that the 58% Bi / 42% Sn eutectic alloy melts at only 140 Celsius, but has very similar mechanical properties (e.g. Young's modulus and tensile strength) at room temperature as standard 60/40 tin-lead alloy (which melts at about 188 C). Even the lowest temperature tin-lead alloy melts at 183 C.

Agreed, that would be even better. I’ll have to get some and give it a try.

wsfarrell · Oct 14, 2019

mzinski
The butane torch technique is not without risk either - particularly on matte black dial. These are fairly sensitive to heat and the matte finish can gloss/smooth over if too much heat is applied. If this occurs it can be possibly be remedied.
On to photos and technique:
Blank semi-gloss black dial bought off eBay.

Yes, the dial foot is not the same profile as a factory applied one - neither is a dial dot.

Like I said this technique is not without risk. I have found it is easier done on dial like a champagne DateJust or like-finished dials. Would I do this to a 1930’s Universal Geneve Compur with a lot of fragile paint and radium spots? Probably not. Would I do it to an Omega Speedmaster Reduced with rusted off dial feet? Yes, I all ready did.
Anyways, hope this provides you with some additional alternatives to think about when consider new dial feet.

Nice work, great photos, thanks!

larryganz · Oct 14, 2019

Dan S
Apologies for those who feel this has been beaten to death, but I would like to revive this perennial topic in case there is a new technique or tool, or someone who has become very proficient in this skill in the past couple of years.
As far as I can tell, it is still a bit of a dilemma.

As has been mentioned previously, using double-sided sticky tape (or dial dots) to attach the dial to the movement doesn't feel like a "proper" repair. On the other hand, even using the correct soldering tool (or a laser), damage to the paint side of the dial is apparently still a substantial risk. So it's hard to contemplate risking damage to the dial (and potentially losing 1/3 of the watch's value) when it can still be attractive and functional with the help of some sticky tape.

My sense after reviewing the threads on several different forums is that a major factor is the experience and skill of the person attempting the repair, which makes a lot of sense. He would need to be aware of the best type of tool, materials and solder for the particular job, experienced at positioning the feet correctly, and familiar with the least invasive approach. Someone who does repairs like this a few times a week would probably have a much better success rate than someone who does it a few times a year.

If you know of someone who has developed a bit of a speciality in dial feet repair, I'd be grateful for the suggestion. Please feel free to PM me if you're not comfortable posting in the open forum.

My watchmaker Jonathan at the Tick Tock Shop in Colorado Springs had to modify a Yobokies dial that i bought to convert my SKX173 into a Tudor Black Bay Red look-alike, because Yobokies sent me a dial for a watch with the crown at 3 o’clock, instead of the one I needed with the crown at 4 o’clock.

Jonathan was able to move the dial feet to rotate the dial, and I could not tell from the front side of the watch.

M'Bob · Oct 14, 2019

Dan S
I'm in a similar situation. People have been giving me more favorable estimates, but who really knows. What did you decide to do?

I didn't think it was worth the risk so I passed, particularly since the repair people that gave the feedback are at the top of the game.

Vitezi · Oct 14, 2019

Dan S
Even the lowest temperature tin-lead alloy melts at 183 C

Just curious: Have you looked into two-part or single-part structural epoxies?

Dan S · Oct 14, 2019

Vitezi
Just curious: Have you looked into two-part or single-part structural epoxies?

In other threads, people mention something called JB Weld to attach feet to the dial. It seems to get mixed reviews.

Archer · Oct 14, 2019

mzinski
The butane torch technique is not without risk either - particularly on matte black dial.

I agree, and I don't believe this technique reduces the risk when compared to a dial foot soldering machine that uses electric current to produce the heat and perform the soldering. The duration of the heat in that technique is much shorter than what you describe here.

That aside, the rest looks fine, but I question this:

mzinski
First lightly drill location to slightly recess for new dial foot. I find this helpful as solder can fill the recess for a better connection.

I understand the thinking here, but this does a couple of things:

1 - By reducing the thickness of the dial in the very spot where the heat needs to be, you are inevitably increasing the heat that reaches the front of the dial compared to a full thickness dial.

2 - This increases the risk of dial failure. Under some shock conditions, instead of the dial feet shearing off, the feet will literally pull the face of the dial through, leaving a hole in the dial. I've seen this happen and again reducing the thickness of the dial here would increase the risk of this.

Cheers, Al

MoclovFlop · Oct 14, 2019

Dan S
In other threads, people mention something called JB Weld to attach feet to the dial. It seems to get mixed reviews.

I've tried JB weld more than once on dial feet. Surfaces have to be textured and extremely clean to get any mechanical adhesion, and even then it's weak. Since, like the solder, you can't have a large pool interfering with the dial height, you don't get much strength. JB Weld doesn't like to act as a "glue", and with the small surface area of the foot, it really doesn't work too well. They like to break the second you tighten the foot screw.

I like the idea of the low temp solder. Might need to give this a try some day.

Joe_A · Oct 15, 2019

I am not a watchmaker and I have never thought to attach dial feet to a dial . . .

I do have quite a lot of experience soldering small things.

The tool that Archer speaks of must be a specialized "resistance soldering" tool.

Resistance soldering is particularly interesting here because the heat can be controlled and contained to a very small area.

In the photos above, one electrode can be connected to the "helping hands" alligator clip and the second electrode could be a pinpoint applied just adjacent to the point of contact between the foot and the dial, but on the very outer edge of the dial only . . . and very close to the joint.

Resistance soldering kits have variable potentiometers on them to obtain precise control over the current flow and therefore the amount of heat and as a result, can likely be controlled to create a small spot of heat just above the melting point of the solder.

Like most things in life, it takes a bit of practice to learn to use resistance soldering to maximum effect, but it is not a daunting thing.

American Beauty is a quality brand with which I am familiar. The least expensive kit would be applicable here. Less expensive tools are available, but an investment of +/- 200 USD would likely be required.

Edit: Googling "Resistance soldering a watch dial" will bring up about 2 million hits, some of which will be useful.

Dan S · Nov 1, 2019

Updating the thread, the feet were safely attached using low-temperature solder without damaging the dial. Phew.

MoclovFlop · Nov 1, 2019

Dan S
Updating the thread, the feet were safely attached using low-temperature solder without damaging the dial. Phew.

What did you use for a heat source? Soldering iron to the solder or heat the rod?

Dan S · Nov 1, 2019

MoclovFlop
What did you use for a heat source? Soldering iron to the solder or heat the rod?

I’m not sure of the details but I can try to find out. I researched the solder and purchased it for the watchmaker, but he did the work. He practiced on a spare dial first.

Repairing dial feet ... yes, again

Dan S

mzinski

JwRosenthal

M'Bob

Dan S

mzinski

Dan S

mzinski

wsfarrell

larryganz

M'Bob

Vitezi

Dan S

Archer

MoclovFlop

Joe_A

Dan S

MoclovFlop

Dan S

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