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"Regia Italiana" Longines pocket watch. Asking for opinions.

  1. Modest_Proposal Trying too hard to be one of the cool kids Jan 5, 2023

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    I need to pool community wisdom on this one. A silver Longines pocket watch with "Regia Italiana" in big script. But what does it mean?

    The only script we've found is an old tobacco ad (found by Dirtydozen). It seems they sold product in Buenos Aires, which is where this watch was found. So that's probably the answer.

    If anybody has other leads, feel free to contribute.

    IMG_9675.jpeg IMG_9683.jpeg

    s-l1600.jpeg
     
    Edited Jan 26, 2023
    Waltesefalcon, bardamu, DaveK and 4 others like this.
  2. Radiumpassion Jan 5, 2023

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    I think you already solved this puzzle, does Longines archives mention
    the «Regia Italiana» on the dial?

    Interesting piece btw, I can`t remember ever seeing a Longines PW with a
    non «horology» releated co-signature on the dial:thumbsup:
     
    Syrte likes this.
  3. Modest_Proposal Trying too hard to be one of the cool kids Jan 5, 2023

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    This is why I was double checking. I haven't seen this kind of "advertisement" before and the term seems just vague enough that it could refer to something else.
     
  4. Vitezi Jan 5, 2023

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    There is another "Regia Italiana" example here:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    https://www.subito.it/hobby-collezionismo/longines-regia-italiana-mantova-397824676.htm

    The description reads: "Rare Longines military watch, given to the officers of the Italian royal. Perfectly preserved, functional and original watch. Pocket watch with silver case and perfect enamel dial. Case against case and movement with the same numbering, it's really rare"

    I believe the Royal Italian military forces used the term "Regia Marina Italiana" for their navy, and "Regia Aeronautica Italiana" for their air force, but these were usually abbreviated as R. Marina or R. Aeronautica, like this:
    [​IMG]
    upload_2023-1-5_21-49-49.jpeg
     
    Edited Jan 5, 2023
    Geme81, Syrte, Waltesefalcon and 5 others like this.
  5. Modest_Proposal Trying too hard to be one of the cool kids Jan 6, 2023

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    Thank you for these photos. Dirtydozen and I had been discussing these same examples privately. I'm not convinced that these are military-related. I'll contact Longines and see in which country it was originally sent. Whether it was Argentina or Italy will help clear it up.
     
    Syrte, bubba48 and Vitezi like this.
  6. mancio Jan 6, 2023

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    Yes, navy, army or Air Force were identified as Marina, esercito or Aereonautica. I have never seen Regia italiana alone used on anything that was related to Italian military during the monarchy.
     
    Syrte, LarryG, Vitezi and 1 other person like this.
  7. BrunoCodispoti Jan 6, 2023

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    For sure is name of Italian Navy before the Republic (1946)
     
  8. bardamu Jan 6, 2023

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    I tend to agree on that.
    Looks like something related to italian commercial products abroad.
    Curious to know what Longines' archives have to say on this.
    Nice watch though!
     
    Syrte, LarryG and bubba48 like this.
  9. Vitezi Jan 8, 2023

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    Regia Italiana could indeed have been a manufacturer of cigarettes and cigars...some further advertising here:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    upload_2023-1-8_12-48-52.png
     
    Edited Jan 8, 2023
    Syrte, bardamu, bubba48 and 3 others like this.
  10. joeshoup Jan 26, 2023

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    I think you're right that this watch is branded for the Italian state tobacco monopoly, which traded under the name "Royal Italian" ("Regia" means "Royal"). In the early period of the enterprise, the Regia Italiana was

    "the “Società Anonima per la Regìa Cointeressata dei Tabacchi.” A private syndicate of European financial organisations, for the 15-year period from 1869 to 1883 it ran the franchise of the operation of the entire tobacco industry in the newly formed Kingdom of Italy, from imports of raw materials and finished products, through manufacture, down to distribution to retailers of the more than hundred different tobacco products for sale in the country."

    After 1883 the Italian state took over direct management of the tobacco monopoly, including production and marketing of Italian tobacco abroad - thus Piccardo & Co were the Buenos Aires importers of Regia Italiana products in the poster above.

    For those who read Italian, here is a link to Antonio Ceci's very readable history of tobacco in Italy, including lots of detail on the Regia Italiana.

    So this watch appears to have a company, rather than a military branding - though still a governmental entity. A cool item! It would be interesting to know whether this was delivered to Argentina, or to Italy. If the former one wonders if this was a reward for employees or distributors, like the Domino's Pizza Rolexes. If the latter, was it government issue like the railway watches?
     
    Modest_Proposal, Vitezi and Syrte like this.
  11. Syrte MWR Tech Support Dept Jan 26, 2023

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    Hi everyone,

    Italian is very close to French and the term “Regia”, like the term “Regie” in French, is an old fashioned one but it’s meaning to me is quite clear, and the best translation I can venture in English is “Management agency”.

    The advert (great find) clearly states:
    “Regia Italiana” ie Italian Management Agency
    Holder of tobacco monopoly
    Ministry of Finance

    While the term indeed comes from the same latin root as the words “regal”, or royal, it doesn’t relate to royalty- or the military.
    The reason it carries this root is because it is an entity whose role is to be the chief; to direct, drive or manage;
    note the word “regulation” also has the same root “REG” yet it’s not literally related to royalty.

    It appear from a cursory reading that those entities in France may be operating under a government concession.

    The French administrative system still has agencies called “Regie”.
    At least one prominent one, the famed Paris metro is run by the regional transport authority called “RATP” which stands for “REGIE AUTONOME DES TRANSPORTS PARISIENS”.

    There is also the “Régie dieppoise des activités portuaires” ie the Port Authority of the City of Dieppe.
    Certain cities have a “Régie des eaux” ie a water management authority.

    Other similar examples can be found I’m sure in many places in Italy or France.


    Have a regal day- or a regular one if you prefer.
     
    Edited Jan 26, 2023
    Warthog, Tony C., Seiji and 6 others like this.
  12. DirtyDozen12 Thanks, mystery donor! Jan 26, 2023

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    @Syrte Thanks for the detailed, etymological analysis!
     
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  13. joeshoup Jan 26, 2023

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    Thank you @Syrte. You're right of course about the other meaning of Regie/Regia, which is the same root as the English word regulation. But I wonder, given the prominent use of the coat of arms of Savoy on many of these advertisements (the shield with cross, with a crown on top), I wonder if they weren't playing on the ambiguity of the two meanings. (The house of Savoy was the Italian royal dynasty until 1946.) There is also the data point that the name of the monopoly was changed under the Republic. What do you think?
     
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  14. Syrte MWR Tech Support Dept Jan 26, 2023

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    Hi @joeshoup I can’t believe you managed to dig up a University of Chicago paper on this Regia Italiana and its history and activities! It is so cool.

    Our Italian friends following this thread (and there are a couple at least) may be better placed than us to interpret all of this.

    That being said, If this company held a government concession in a kingdom, it would be logical for it to carry royal emblems- just like in the Uk for retailers designated “by appointment to her majesty the Queen”.

    In any event, it’ll be interestinf to try and read the full article you posted— proving that watches can open the door to just about anything, including a better understanding of industrial economics.
     
    DaveK likes this.