Rare C-Shape Connie with a black dial - true?

Rudi99 · Nov 10, 2020

Dear fellow members of OF,

I hope everyone is doing alright. I come again to ask for help before pulling the trigger on this one.

I was browsing through the old market where I bought my first three vintage pieces with your help and fell in love with this C-Shape Connie.

This is a Connie ref. 168.017 with a black dial and cal 564.

It is my understanding, that this black dial version with the dolphin hands, tritium lume markers and the very short crown is quite rare and I was even inclined to think it was either redial or franken. But I did find a couple more examples of it in the internet in the end though.

The fotos provided by the seller, who is not a dealer, are quite terrible and I apologise.

I think it is safe to assume it is not a redial, and the 564 chronometer movement does not seem abused. However, I would very much like your feedback on the watch in general. Maybe I am not seeing something. I do see the case condition is not the best, but I still feel attracted to the watch. Even though they are not common, I believe the dolphin hands are original and belong to this piece.

Like some other examples I brought in here, the asking price is very low and that makes the purchase both tempting but suspicious at the same time.

Thanks in advance, people.

JwRosenthal · Nov 10, 2020

It would be nice to see one sharp picture of the dial- they are all out of focus.
I don’t see any red flags here. I was looking for the lume pips at the end of the markers and can’t because of the burry photos, but I can see one next to the date window at least that one is there.
Can’t tell if the case still has its brushed surfaces- that would be a deal breaker for me if it has been polished smooth unless is was dirt cheap- then I would have it rebrushed. Bracelet looks to have been polished to high gloss which is not a good sign (again- it can be rebrushed but the original factory finish is gone).
It has the bricks bracelet which is a big deal (that adds $200+ to the value), but you need to verify size- extra links are not easily available for these.
Dauphine hands were used on the earliest C-cases if memory serves, not sure if that crown is correct- mine is a later style.
It looks legit, and would be a fine daily wear- but I wouldn’t pay a collectors premium for it with the condition issue and apparent polishing of non-polished surfaces.

Rudi99 · Nov 10, 2020

JwRosenthal
It looks legit, and would be a fine daily wear- but I wouldn’t pay a collectors premium for it with the condition issue and apparent polishing of non-polished surfaces.

Thanks a lot for the input. I do miss the brushed finish on the upper side of the case and it is a pity given that it is part of the charm of the design of the C-Shape Connies. I didn't think it would be possible to get someone to brush it (cool idea) and as a matter of fact, I was indeed thinking of buying it to wear it and just enjoy it and beat it around. It is being offered for just 400€, which for an original Connie with a 564 movement, even with a polished case, sounds to me quite appealing.. 😬

Rudi99 · Nov 10, 2020

JwRosenthal
It would be nice to see one sharp picture of the dial- they are all out of focus.
I don’t see any red flags here. I was looking for the lume pips at the end of the markers and can’t because of the burry photos, but I can see one next to the date window at least that one is there.

I thought the tritium lume was there inserted inside the hour markers, right? There is a faint stripe on each hour marker. On the first foto one can see it. Was that not the lume?

JwRosenthal · Nov 10, 2020

Rudi99
Thanks a lot for the input. I do miss the brushed finish on the upper side of the case and it is a pity given that it is part of the charm of the design of the C-Shape Connies. I didn't think it would be possible to get someone to brush it (cool idea) and as a matter of fact, I was indeed thinking of buying it to wear it and just enjoy it and beat it around. It is being offered for just 400€, which for an original Connie with a 564 movement, even with a polished case, sounds to me quite appealing.. 😬

€400 isn’t bad considering the dial seems to be in good shape (can’t really see it well)and we assume it’s running- but of course will need a service.
Any watchmaker can rebrush- the key is getting the specific finishes right and the correct grain (not too course). The bezel should have a semi-course radial brush that plays the light, the case an almost sateen curved brush that follows the case lines, sides have a horizontal strait brush- slightly courser than the top, and bracelet a linear brush like the sides- and don’t forget that ever so important chamfer between the top and sides that need to have crisp lines....these watches are so sexy!

JwRosenthal · Nov 10, 2020

Rudi99
I thought the tritium lume was there inserted inside the hour markers, right? There is a faint stripe on each hour marker. On the first foto one can see it. Was that not the lume?

I really can’t see in those pics- but I can’t imagine they have been redone.

Rudi99 · Nov 11, 2020

JwRosenthal
€400 isn’t bad considering the dial seems to be in good shape (can’t really see it well)and we assume it’s running- but of course will need a service.
Any watchmaker can rebrush- the key is getting the specific finishes right and the correct grain (not too course). The bezel should have a semi-course radial brush that plays the light, the case an almost sateen curved brush that follows the case lines, sides have a horizontal strait brush- slightly courser than the top, and bracelet a linear brush like the sides- and don’t forget that ever so important chamfer between the top and sides that need to have crisp lines....these watches are so sexy!

Your description is a poem! Thanks again for the help 😀

janice&fred · Nov 11, 2020

Rudi99
It is being offered for just 400€

And you are wondering if it's worth it? Old watches and their bracelets were sometimes <gasp> repaired and re-polished. Don't get hung up on that or you will start missing out on all the fun in this hobby. However there is hope for those that carry a microscope under their arm as the malls are full of watches with their original finish.

JwRosenthal · Nov 11, 2020

janice&fred
And you are wondering if it's worth it? Old watches and their bracelets were sometimes <gasp> repaired and re-polished. Don't get hung up on that or you will start missing out on all the fun in this hobby. However there is hope for those that carry a microscope under their arm as the malls are full of watches with their original finish.

I agree, for €400 it looks like a nice watch. Any watch that had been for service within the last 70 years probably got hit with a polishing wheel- sometimes it was done well and sometimes not. When a watch that was entirely brushed has been polished to a gloss and crisp chamfers have been polished soft (this one still looks pretty good) , it no longer looks like it is supposed to. The finish can be reapplied if it’s hasn’t lost too much material, but it loses some of its value in terms of “collector” value. That is important to some collectors, to others it isn’t.
If the seller wanted €1.5k, I would say pass, but at €400 plus cost of service and having the case & bracelet rebrushed- it’s not a bad deal.

janice&fred · Nov 11, 2020

JwRosenthal
it no longer looks like it is supposed to.

And this is where things get strange. A 40-70 year old watch is not supposed to look like parts of it were made yesterday. It's natural history and age is crudely and inconsistently fluffed up. How would this watch pictured in this thread look with a new shimmering brush job while the dial and hands present as properly aged and wabied?

JwRosenthal · Nov 11, 2020

janice&fred
And this is where things get strange. A 40-70 year old watch is not supposed to look like parts of it were made yesterday. It's natural history and age is crudely and inconsistently fluffed up. How would this watch pictured in this thread look with a new shimmering brush job while the dial and hands present as properly aged and wabied?

Don’t disagree- just giving an alternative to the OP about restoring original finishes which is part of the allure of these watches- the multi-brushed surfaces. Throw it in a rock tumbler for all I care to knock the high shine down if he doesn’t like it. Someone may indeed love this watch visible from space with a mirror-like finish.

janice&fred · Nov 11, 2020

JwRosenthal
Someone may indeed love this watch visible from space with a mirror-like finish.

Oh boy. Take a deep breath. It's not as bad as you think. However you might take care not to catch the sun on factory mirror polished speedy lugs or tilt a vintage Rolex as the polished case sides might bring down a passenger jet. 😁

Rudi99 · Nov 11, 2020

janice&fred
And you are wondering if it's worth it? Old watches and their bracelets were sometimes <gasp> repaired and re-polished. Don't get hung up on that or you will start missing out on all the fun in this hobby. However there is hope for those that carry a microscope under their arm as the malls are full of watches with their original finish.

Hi Fred and thanks for the input, it is a valid discussion regarding the overall look of a watch that is 60+ years old.

I was not hung up by it though. As I wrote in the beginning, I fell in love with the piece and still feel super attracted towards it, with or without the original brushed finishing. The overall looks of the watch were still appealing to me.

The main worry was if I was missing something like a false hand or lume because it looked indeed like a bargain.

janice&fred · Nov 11, 2020

Rudi99
it looked indeed like a bargain.

You know my cowboy motto when it comes to cheap deals..."shoot first ask questions later" 😁

onlyomega94 · Nov 11, 2020

I must say that I agree with @janice&fred here. At 400 euro, this is almost a no brainer for me. Even if it's not to your liking, I think you will easily get your money back. So I would also say go for it.

janice&fred · Nov 11, 2020

Rudi99
The overall looks of the watch were still appealing to me.

That's how I buy as well.

onlyomega94
I must say that I agree with @janice&fred here. At 400 euro, this is almost a no brainer for me.

I think everyone in this thread including Rudi agree. However call me strange but I always prefer keeping vintage stuff I buy "as found" and only fix what's needed. Rudi's example of a C-case here would get a movement service, cleaning of the case and bracelet, possibly a tuning up of the head link to case fitting and be ready to wear for me 😁

onlyomega94 · Nov 11, 2020

janice&fred
I think everyone in this thread including Rudi agree. However call me strange but I always prefer keeping vintage stuff I buy "as found" and only fix what's needed. Rudi's example of a C-case here would get a movement service, cleaning of the case and bracelet, possibly a tuning up of the head link to case fitting and be ready to wear for me 😁

My thoughts too. Unless there are some very special circumstances I also like to keep them "as found". It all adds to the charm of vintage pieces in my book. Otherwise one might as well buy a new watch IMO (of course that if often more expensive).

bardamu · Nov 11, 2020

JwRosenthal
If the seller wanted €1.5k, I would say pass, but at €400 plus cost of service and having the case & bracelet rebrushed- it’s not a bad deal.

Totally agree.

janice&fred · Nov 11, 2020

onlyomega94
My thoughts too. Unless there are some very special circumstances I also like to keep them "as found"

Well to be fair for both camps, there is probably some sort of linear gauge with extreme polar opposite end points. Just like over-restorers, there are some collectors that take "as found" a bit too far. James Dowling is one of our pals over on MWR and has gotten quite a few pieces from us over the years, and he keeps some of his pieces "as-found" to the point where there is still grunge around the crystals, case and between the bracelet links. Yea that would be too "as found" for me 😁

onlyomega94 · Nov 11, 2020

janice&fred
Well to be fair for both camps, there is probably some sort of linear gauge with extreme polar opposite end points. Just like over-restorers, there are some collectors that take "as found" a bit too far. James Dowling is one of our pals over on MWR and has gotten quite a few pieces from us over the years, and he keeps some of his pieces "as-found" to the point where there is still grunge around the crystals, case and between the bracelet links. Yea that would be too "as found" for me 😁

Hahaha, I would say that I like mine as found - but I don't want to run around with the previous owner's dead skin on my watch..

Rare C-Shape Connie with a black dial - true?

Rudi99

JwRosenthal

Rudi99

Rudi99

JwRosenthal

JwRosenthal

Rudi99

janice&fred

JwRosenthal

janice&fred

JwRosenthal

janice&fred

Rudi99

janice&fred

onlyomega94

janice&fred

onlyomega94

bardamu

janice&fred

onlyomega94

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