Question: How Authentic is "Authentic"

Stini · Sun. 2:50pm

Hello,

I’ve been a member since June 2022 and an on-off lurker before then since 2019, and realize that as much as I’ve learned, I will never begin to hope to attain the knowledge of so many on this Forum who are so devoted to timepieces.

I come more from the world of art and antiques. In a former life with a minuscule wholesale business to the trade we would periodically handle clocks and watches, with my husband also picking up the odd piece for me (one still in my possession as my avatar).

In this kind of business, it is not uncommon to encounter pieces that have been “enhanced” (like possibly by a particular artist and then with a signature added, or potions even added or painted over) or even created from multiple other pieces—making a “marriage” or a “franken piece.” Nota bene: I just learned the term “marriage” in watch circles refers to conversions of a pocket watch into a wrist watch. So, for clarity I will hold to the term “Franken.”

For example, you might find a dresser or sideboard combining parts from different pieces of furniture sharing (or not) a wood and time period in common. This doesn’t necessarily mean a dealer is trying to defraud the buyer, as long as a marriage / franken is disclosed. It just indicates something about a piece’s past life and usage, including a repair history. People used their furniture, stuff happened, you wouldn’t just chuck out a piece if you could rehabilitate it. However, there are also dealers that are a bit less than ethical and create new pieces out of old antiques to move their inventory along, and they just fail to disclose it.

As I learn more about Omega and other fine quality watches, I see myself feeling quite over-matched when it comes to the multiplicity of parts—the dial with what kinds of hands; the works and all that goes with them; all the portions that might require brand marks also including the crown and crystal… it’s a lot. A very specialized lot.

Therefore I am grateful for the work that has gone into posts about the “basics” by ulackfocus’ 2018 series Horology 101. I also learn much (retention is something else) from the questions and answers offered by members about the authenticity of a particular watch.

How common is such fakery as franken watches among quality watches? What are some rules of thumb for spotting it if you aren’t already an expert? What is considered “okay” for replacement and why or why not?

Peemacgee · Sun. 3:35pm

There is in fact also a difference between fakery and frankenwatches.

E.g. a Constellation with a non-chronometer Omega movt would be considered a frankenwatch but not necessarily ‘fake’ as all parts are Omega just not as they left the factory.
However, there are also truly fake Constellations (cases and dials) out there. Which may or may not have an omega movt in them.

With regards spotting ‘wrong-uns’, there is no substitute for studying correct watches.
Pick a brand and reference that you like and research them again and again until you can spot what is good and what are the usual tell-tale signs a watch has been messed with.

Certain replacement parts are considered acceptable (crystal, crown) as they are considered service items - as long as they are correct replacements for that reference.
However, originality is still prized above all.

Hope that helps.

Stini · Sun. 5:15pm

Peemacgee
There is in fact also a difference between fakery and frankenwatches.

Is there such a term within the field as "frankenwatch" and this will automatically be understood?

Peemacgee
Certain replacement parts are considered acceptable (crystal, crown) as they are considered service items - as long as they are correct replacements for that reference.
However, originality is still prized above all.

I've noticed that there are certain replacement parts that are basically counted "as though" original if they are within brand and model usage, if you can source them by means of the Swiss watch fairy workshop. jk. Is that considered kind of "more" acceptable than other replacement parts? Or is it, to paraphrase Gertrude Stein "a replacement is a replacement is a replacement" and would require full disclosure? I would disclose any way, no matter what.

Dan S · Sun. 5:21pm

Frankenwatches and vintage watches with unoriginal parts are very common, and not desirable to collectors, often reducing the collectible value to near zero. Unfortunately, there are really no shortcuts to learning how to identify these issues, the knowledge is an assembly of thousands of minute details, different for each brand and model. You just have to pay attention and study all the details. If you are interested in starting a collection of vintage watches, it could be a good idea to focus on a particular brand, model, or reference, to narrow the scope of what must be learned.

sheepdoll · Sun. 11:16pm

I have been collecting, if one could call it that for over 30 years. My preference is for parts assortments and rusty ratty watches. While this feels like a cheaper option it is not. I learned to self service, which is not something that most people can, or are willing to do. More often than not there is a part missing, which becomes the value of the entire project.

Tastes change and there are generational shifts. For much of it's history the Swiss makers sold raw unfinished movements which are called euboches. Some of this was to avoid tariffs. Other ways it was territorial where only certain people were allowed in the game. An example of this only Norman Morris could import movements and case them in the US. These are known as locally cased watches. Many countries did this. Watches are a form of currency and can be traded and bartered to work around local trade laws. Or to put it bluntly, they can be used to launder money. With billions produced over the last 300 years. It is impossible to track and trace them all.

A major shift in ideology came about with the advent of home computing and the cable entertainment networks in the late 1970s, where the term intellectual property was coined. Companies got vindictive over trade marks and design patents. The quartz crisis exasperated this. Where 'trusted' brand names were sold an exploited. The companies and brands becoming the commodity, without the need for actually producing anything.

Rolex which I think was an English company, used off the shelf movements with patented cases. Omega focused on technical superiority. Sponsoring the Olympics and getting lucky with the space program. Omega seems to also attract some of the better designers who were able to achieve something which if we pardon the pun, appears timeless. This could be said of many of the more successful brands.

When I started collecting, dial painting was an accepted alternative. I spent time myself learning about it. (such work is quite hard to do nicely.) With the advent of more information through the networks, and social media, originality became the deciding factor.

The companies also pulled production in house, refusing to sell the spare parts and assemblies. Probably due to the over production of cheap knockoffs sold in touristy areas.

These forums focus the collectability more on originality. Many collectors want something rare and unique. Others want a tool watch they can use every day. Bang into door frames, even use to pound nails from time to time. Mow the lawn etc...

Fallout Boy · Mon. 12:41am

sheepdoll
When I started collecting, dial painting was an accepted alternative.

40 years ago, reluming (hands) e.g. was standard to maintain its former function:

My radium!- relumed Bulova
Not original but authentic - just like the 80ies cars with added glass sun-roof

my2cents.

Peemacgee · Mon. 1:33am

Stini
Is there such a term within the field as "frankenwatch" and this will automatically be understood?

I've noticed that there are certain replacement parts that are basically counted "as though" original if they are within brand and model usage, if you can source them by means of the Swiss watch fairy workshop. jk. Is that considered kind of "more" acceptable than other replacement parts? Or is it, to paraphrase Gertrude Stein "a replacement is a replacement is a replacement" and would require full disclosure? I would disclose any way, no matter what.

The term Frankenwatch is a well understood derogatory name for a watch made up of incorrect parts for that particular reference.

As noted above, this could be the wrong movt but it could equally be the wrong hands, wrong dial etc.
If a single item like the crown or even the hands are incorrect this usually wouldn’t be called a frankenwatch.
It’s really a term that implies someone has put a watch together.

Regarding replacement parts, all other things ( like condition) being equal, originality is always preferred but certain correct genuine branded parts can be acceptable.
However, replacement parts are often identifiable and so, again, all other things being equal, the entirely original watch will be more desirable to a collector and so command a premium.

Stini · Mon. 11:07pm

sheepdoll
Tastes change and there are generational shifts. For much of it's history the Swiss makers sold raw unfinished movements which are called euboches. Some of this was to avoid tariffs. Other ways it was territorial where only certain people were allowed in the game.

Thank you for the terminology--I was aware of the ways in which tariffs might be avoided (by means of some aspect of "assembly" being done in the market country, even if that was only via a watchband, for example. I did not know the term "euboche." That there were also "exclusive" relationships with some sellers, which still goes on even in low level retail (say, artisanal soaps) I did not consider, but makes total sense in terms of controlling a market and value.

sheepdoll
A major shift in ideology came about with the advent of home computing and the cable entertainment networks in the late 1970s, where the term intellectual property was coined. Companies got vindictive over trade marks and design patents. The quartz crisis exasperated this. Where 'trusted' brand names were sold an exploited. The companies and brands becoming the commodity, without the need for actually producing anything.

I don't know enough about the history of advertising, patents, and the difference between being a "patent holder," copyright history or the rest to evaluate the idea of coining "intellectual property." I am guessing you specifically mean the term more than the concept as such.

sheepdoll
These forums focus the collectability more on originality. Many collectors want something rare and unique. Others want a tool watch they can use every day. Bang into door frames, even use to pound nails from time to time. Mow the lawn etc...

A evocative primer about Rolex, Omega, and their origins and reputations. I really appreciate these thoughts because they can take one in so many directions depending on how you are approaching the history of these kinds of timepieces versus collecting or how combine these two potentially conflicting activities. Huh! I sound like a professor of art history in a privileged academic position here! Oops! But, I was never that. Didn't get far enough in a proper career, but know how bad collecting behavior can create a real antipathy from historians. And... from a collector's viewpoint, commonality can be seen as a bane. Too bland. Not showing individuality, or, sometimes, the ability to acquire something rare and exclusive.

For me, I can find as much meaning in the mass of workaday watches as in the most exclusive ones. They tell you so much about the culture, the time, the aesthetics, the economy, etc that produced them and the masses who acquire them every bit as much as the you learn about the former and the individuals who acquire the rare and highly desirable.

Sorry if I went on and on. The overlaps of these pretty incredible miniaturized timepieces with culture history are endlessly fascinating.

Stini · Mon. 11:45pm

Peemacgee
There is in fact also a difference between fakery and frankenwatches.
Certain replacement parts are considered acceptable (crystal, crown) as they are considered service items - as long as they are correct replacements for that reference.
However, originality is still prized above all.

Hope that helps.

It helps a ton. In many ways, a frankenwatch created in order to deceive seems like something a non-expert would have a real difficult time spotting... more than plain counterfeit. Thank you for pointing out the difference. Is forgery also considered something else entirely?

Peemacgee · 2025-01-14T01:36:37-0600

Stini
It helps a ton. In many ways, a frankenwatch created in order to deceive seems like something a non-expert would have a real difficult time spotting... more than plain counterfeit. Thank you for pointing out the difference. Is forgery also considered something else entirely?

In the watch world, forgery, or the complete reproduction of a counterfeit watch is generally just known as fake.
Fake Omega watches have been produced for over half a century.

Frankenwatches are usually produced, nefariously, by someone who has a box of parts and assembles a watch to sell on but also ‘innocently’ by someone bringing a watch back to life by, say, inserting a workable but incorrect movt.

There is of course the recent case of the assembly of a watch (or watches) with the intention to deceive, using correct parts from various sources to create a very valuable watch. ($3m)
In principle the watch was all correct but as it was assembled with the intention to deceive it is deemed a frankenwatch.

This is thankfully a rare occurrence in the Omega world and there are many amateur experts who uncover deceptions like this. ( as they did in this case)

SpeedyPhill · 2025-01-14T09:54:48-0600

👍 many amateur experts who uncover deceptions like this...

Stini · 2025-01-14T13:01:44-0600

Peemacgee
In the watch world, forgery, or the complete reproduction of a counterfeit watch is generally just known as fake.

Peemacgee
There is of course the recent case of the assembly of a watch (or watches) with the intention to deceive, using correct parts from various sources to create a very valuable watch. ($3m)
In principle the watch was all correct but as it was assembled with the intention to deceive it is deemed a frankenwatch.

This is thankfully a rare occurrence in the Omega world and there are many amateur experts who uncover deceptions like this. ( as they did in this case)

Was this the case of the complete frankenwatch? "https://www.cnn.com/style/article/fake-omega-watch-record-auction-intl-scli/index.html"

(apologies if I messed up the format for making a link live)

One takeaway- OMEGA apparently has a full-time investigative unit. I suppose with money like this it is a standard for luxury brands:
"The company added that three former employees “have admitted to the run of events when confronted during an OMEGA internal investigation, which is active and ongoing. OMEGA is bringing criminal charges against all involved.”

Screenshot 2025-01-14 at 10.57.04 AM.webp

Peemacgee · 2025-01-14T13:10:57-0600

Yes, the concern being that other ‘rare’ watches were created by the same ‘Perps’ that didn’t garner so much attention or scrutiny.

Stini · 2025-01-14T13:28:46-0600

I'd love to know the back story of this group. I'll follow up later to see what can be found about the "intermediaries" who got this piece to the auction house as well. Unless... of course, someone beats me to it! ;o)

Question: How Authentic is "Authentic"

Stini

Peemacgee

Stini

Dan S

sheepdoll

Fallout Boy

Peemacgee

Stini

Stini

Peemacgee

SpeedyPhill

Stini

Peemacgee

Stini

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