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Perhaps a good reference for how original lume looks like on a 165.024 Seamaster (no pin hole)

  1. reficul_x

    reficul_x May 22, 2020

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    I noticed the pin holes interesting nuances back in 2004 when I was so crazy over Seamaster 300 165.024, in particular the Big Triangle 12 version Back then no one really called it big triangle, at least as far as I know. With a not so good command of English, I began to call it the Big Triangle Seamaster 300. I do not claim to coin that term, but I was sure that I made that up.
    Long and Short, I also started to noticed that most original lume has that pin hole at 12 & 6. And that led me wondering if that is the mark of an original lume, without it, it isn’t. Back then when people still read reviews on ebay, I remembering contributing a little review on it.

    With enough specimens, especially with those estate auction pieces, First owners or at least good provenance examples or simple really “damaged” with mouldy lumes, where it cannot be a case where the watch is modified, I draw my own conclusion that there were 2 type of examples that exist, with and without pin holes at 12 & 6. To date, I have had owned at least 30-40 pieces that past through my hands on just Seamaster 300 dates/ no date.

    To complicate a little further, there were another 2 type of lume application, the earlier ones that existed from the 60s and a later from the 70s. I dare not define the exact dates if you can see as I did not explore and only collect Seamasters as I collect a variety of watches both vintageS and moderns.

    The earlier 60s lume I believed was hand applied, and hence forth the lume always looks imperfect, exposing the white Part beneath which I believed was a “template” for the lume designed to be filled. The 60s tend to always look yellowish (let’s not Bring those mouldy examples in), and they are slightly thicker. They always glow in the dark after exposure to light and react to UV. So I believe these are tritium activated zinc sulphate as the phosphor. Very Consistent with many other watch companies Then.

    Then we have the later lume, which I believe is made from the 70s onwards and they are usually green, extremely thin in thickness. I believe these are stamp padded, somewhat how Rolex does theirs in their 70s to early 80 (1984) and some stamp pad has too much “ink” soaked and hence gives us what we all love, the ultra maxi dial which is totally out of shape in some.

    so before I head out of topic, I’ll like to show how an original lume, Earlier version the 60s, no pin hole Seamaster 300 should look like.

    Pin holes are harder to achieve by the average relumer (though it has been done), and the stamp pad thin lume from the 70s are hard to achieve as well so that’s why I decided to show macro shots of an often faked, relumed dial of a Seamaster 300 so that this can be a good reference for the novice OR to a seasoned collector that may not have enough samples to know what’s original what’s not.

    Here’s photos under daylight and under UV light. Noticed under UV, there is nearly no speckles of inconsistency of the glow unlike radium, where I believe radium destroy phosphor faster due to its high radioactive nature.

    Hope you have found this article useful.

    82F86555-B1A9-49ED-8993-A701EE139F4B.jpeg 27D4435E-0FFC-4C73-8518-75B778F4B96D.jpeg 1CC482C1-1004-48BA-8C57-FB813CC4C2BE.jpeg B3046DD6-CE2D-46BF-8422-B5F94A6B0697.jpeg 40C19FB1-8B70-46E4-BDB4-8BDA9AA5885A.jpeg 01644530-6008-4F77-B276-C1630C5823CF.jpeg
     
    C7A8A14B-4044-4BED-8260-1149BE2B2ADD.jpeg
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  2. ELV web

    ELV web May 22, 2020

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    Are the pictures of these watches relumed watch or are they original lumes?
     
  3. reficul_x

    reficul_x May 22, 2020

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    Original lume. If not the above photoS serve no purpose
     
  4. ndgal

    ndgal May 22, 2020

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    From what I have seen the pinholes are always there. Whether you see them pretty easily, or you don't at all.
    The holes had nothing to do with the lume, they are a part of the constriction/manufacture methods of the dial.
    It all depends on the way the applcation of the lume happened at the factory that day.
    Usually, on super mint and clean examples, the holes are less noticeable as the lume is in pretty much factory perfect condition and has not deteriorated or aged.
    If you've seen enough of these and have a keen eye for detail, when looking closely you can detect the pinhole hidden under a micro millimeter layer of Tritium. Even on your watch:

    [​IMG]

    Here is my similar 165.024 BT in museum condition. Holes are a hair easier to detect than yours, but very close.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  5. reficul_x

    reficul_x May 22, 2020

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    Hey buddy good to see you here!

    yes initially I thought this may be hidden. It could be the fact that some lume were still wet when first newly applied and the lume were overloaded and hence some pin holes were missing.
    However I am very sure that some were really missing that even under a strong light and 10x loupe.

    I really suspect every piece should have it BUT I speculated that because of the inconsistent amount of lume, when it was freshly done, the pin hole could be covered.
    So that’s why some didn’t have them. That’s only my speculation on the application bit and through observing those original lume with no pin holes
     
  6. reficul_x

    reficul_x May 22, 2020

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    Let me take some fresh photo of mine without the crystal. Perhaps that can shed some light on this matter!
     
  7. ndgal

    ndgal May 22, 2020

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    Look, there's a sure way to find out.
    Scrape the lume off your dial. If the holes are there, I win.
    If the holes are not there, you win. ;);):D
     
  8. reficul_x

    reficul_x May 23, 2020

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    Haha haha. You’re so right buddy... and evil!

    anyway as promised here’s a macro.

    Very sure the “hole” that shows in the photos are just another “sunken” part of the lume. I know the 12 looks like a hole. It could be but at 6, there isn’t.
    471B72F1-D01F-462D-AF64-547446BB0084.jpeg FF2F7ACB-FA0A-4050-AC31-AF26AF932B80.jpeg AD5A1AFB-5D3E-40E4-A6AD-A20CEF9AB417.jpeg 72DB9011-FAA8-405F-964E-C2808FA96A62.jpeg 84F5EFE7-6326-424A-BE8A-D66EE1797C9C.jpeg 1DE037D5-4642-4A01-8229-5181F424AAFD.jpeg
     
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  9. ndgal

    ndgal May 23, 2020

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    Right. it is "Sunken" exactly at the spot where the hole will be (is). Isn't that just a killer coincidence? ;)

    [​IMG]

    Mine:

    [​IMG]

    Call me crazy but you can also see where the hole is at the 6 on your watch:

    [​IMG]
     
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  10. JanV

    JanV May 23, 2020

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    I share the same opinion as @ndgal, yours show the pin hole, but veeery faint. The lume on the SM300’s tend to wander about a bit, i believe the lume was applied with a more generous hand than on for example Speedmasters as the lume had a key role in a divers watch. In time the lume settles, and creates this wobbly lume we see on many dials, this would also cover the pin holes. Here’s also my BT for an comparison, the dimple on 6 o’clock is on this exact location on OP’s watch.
     
    A603E00F-4DD8-4D32-B915-0726B130B6CB.png 0B15B341-144D-4A6C-AF0F-FDF8B1BE68FE.png
    Edited May 23, 2020
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  11. reficul_x

    reficul_x May 23, 2020

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    I get it. You know I scrutinised for the spot and yes to me it’s a coincidence and the 12 was easier to spot (or just coincidence) but the 6, was nearly impossible.
    Let see what the rest think too. Too bad back then we dont have good camera like today and those I sold, I didn’t manage to take a photo at them
     
  12. ndgal

    ndgal May 23, 2020

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    Take a needle and try to stick it in there.
    If it goes through, there's a hole. :D
    If it doesn't, no hole. ;)
     
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  13. flqt-9000

    flqt-9000 May 23, 2020

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    the holes are simply through and can be seen also from the back side of the dial. Some dials have them and some other not.
     
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  14. simonsays

    simonsays May 23, 2020

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    ^^^ This. All the .024 dials I have seen uncased have holes when viewed from the back.
     
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  15. reficul_x

    reficul_x May 23, 2020

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    Yeah but it doesn’t address if the lume is Original
     
  16. reficul_x

    reficul_x May 23, 2020

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    Hahhahah. And next moment..... the entire lume falls out