Patek Gondolo service: 17K and 83 weeks

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Do you believe that PP sells parts for this watch?

No, we agree on that point.

So what is the independent watchmaker going to do to replace those worn or damaged parts?

Is he going to recut wheels by hand? Recut pinions as well?

Or for wheels where it's just the pivots that are worn out, are they going to repivot all those?

Are they going to cut new jewels for those that might be worn or cracked?

Neither of us can answer those questions, as different watchmakers have different abilities. Also, parts such as the jewels may well be available from independent suppliers, and donor movements may be available for a reasonable cost.

But what we agree on - that PP won't sell parts, frames where we perhaps differ the most. You are suggesting that PP may be charging a fair price for their vintage service, while I am extremely skeptical. They can charge whatever the hell they want, without having to justify the cost, because they monopolize the parts. I have spoken at length to watchmakers in Switzerland, and have been told that none of the big three, and Rolex (the fourth) in particular, want to service vintage watches, and for a variety of reasons. They do so, but charge far more than the actual costs of parts and labor, in order to discourage such work. I know for a fact that Rolex even adjusts costs based on the auction values of rare watches! Outrageous!
 
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You are suggesting that PP may be charging a fair price for their vintage service, while I am extremely skeptical.

Tony - this claim is entirely false. In fact I have stated that debating the cost of this is fair game a couple of times:

"One can argue the price of the work involved if they wish, but the scope of work is best known by the person who is quoting the work."

"As I said, you can argue the cost of this all you want - don't care about that. The scope of work however, is a different thing."

So I would ask that you stop with the false claims...

As for using "donor movements" yes you can. Donor movements can be useful, but often the parts that you are looking to replace due to wear, will also be worn in the donor watch, so how many are you willing to pay for to search for all the parts needed? I have donor movements in my shop that I search through all the time for parts, but I've had several instances where I might look through 10 movements I have, and the part I need is in worse shape in all of them than the part I'm trying to replace - this is not an uncommon thing at all.

How much time would you expect the average watchmaker to spend doing this or looking for jewels, or whatever parts might be needed?

The issue I have here is that all this rolls off people's keyboards like "Duh, all he has to do is give it some guy and it will be fine - no drama!" when you actually have no clue what is involved. This is not nearly as straightforward as people think it is...I live this sort of thing every day, so have first hand experience at doing this.

Cheers, Al
 
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"One can argue the price of the work involved if they wish, but the scope of work is best known by the person who is quoting the work."

"As I said, you can argue the cost of this all you want - don't care about that. The scope of work however, is a different thing."

Yes, sorry Al, you had made those qualifications, so I apologize for having implied otherwise. However, I frankly find it difficult to separate what you are arguing about the "scope" of the work, and the cost estimate. First, I am very skeptical that the work that they claim to be required is actually required. What I mean by that is that while it may well be required in order to produce the watch in condition that is close to how it originally left the factory, that standard is far, far above what the vast majority of owners of a vintage watch like this require. With rare exceptions, they don't care if the watch is attaining its maximum accuracy, or if each part looks "as new" under a microscope. They want a movement that is attractive, functioning well, and will not cause any serious damage with little to moderate use for a few years.

There is a sharp mismatch between what the manufacturers typically insist on doing, and what the vast majority of collectors actually want, and as I have argued above, this is no accident.

Then there is the issue of costs, which I believe to be inflated by design.

In broad terms, I do agree with your final observation in your above post, though.

Cheers,

Tony
Edited:
 
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Yes, sorry Al, you had made those qualifications, so I apologize for having implied otherwise. However, I frankly find it difficult to separate what you are arguing about the "scope" of the work, and the cost estimate.

They are related, but separate certainly. One has an impact on the other, but is not the entire determining factor.

First, I am very skeptical that the work that they claim to be required is actually required. What I mean by that is that while it may well be required in order to produce the watch in condition which emerges in condition that is close to how it originally left the factory, that standard is far, far above what the vast majority of owners of a vintage watch like this require. With rare exceptions, they don't care if the watch is attaining its maximum accuracy, or if each part looks "as new" under a microscope. They want a movement that is attractive, functioning well, and will not cause any serious damage with little to moderate use for a few years.

Indeed. This is why it so so absurd that someone would send a watch to PP, and expect them to do a "less than PP like" job in restoring it. And it's even more absurd for that person to then go on a rant on about it on the internet, and for others to jump to his defense. The company's reputation alone should provide this person with enough knowledge to understand that he would not get back some half assed repair job. If that wasn't enough, even a cursory amount of research would show that PP is a company that works to very high standards, and are not about to do any job in a way that might reflect poorly on their quality. To suggest that they should do otherwise is being willfully ignorant of the brand.

To be clear, I earn my living by doing what customers want largely because brands will impose their wishes, but there is a limit to that. The customer is in complete control over any aesthetic choices related to their watch when it comes to me for service. So things like polishing, hand replacement, dial replacement, or replacement of any external parts are completely up to the watch owner. If they want a watch back that has zero water resistance and leaks like a sieve, I'm happy to send it back that way, and make sure that they understand that if they end up with a flooded watch, it's all on them.

Where I do not compromise is on the movement. The judgement of what to repair, replace, or reuse, is completely up to me. When you say "vast majority of owners of a vintage watch"es want to just have the sort of minimal job done on the movement, this is not my experience at all. But if someone approaches me to do that sort of job, I simply inform them them that it's not what I do, and they are free to find a watchmaker who will do as they wish. No one (that I know of) has gone on line and ranted at my decision to turn down that kind of work.

To me this is a story about someone who had completely unrealistic expectations of what the company would do for them. Or worse, he knew and wanted confirmation so he could rant about it on the internet. I have little sympathy for him having spent the money to send it in for what he likely knew was going to be a very large bill.

I'm no fan of a lot of brand policies to be sure, but blaming the wall for making your head sore when you are smashing it into that wall, is quite frankly idiotic.

Cheers, Al

PS - as an aside yes PP can be a very condescending company, and I don't condone that. In years past when I have been through all kinds of watch factories in Switzerland, the majority of them went out of their way to make you feel that they were lucky to have you there as their guest. When I went through PP's factory, the impression that was given constantly is that I was lucky to be allowed to be there, and quite honestly it was very off putting.
 
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Thanks Al. I view it a bit differently, as these companies are typically unwilling to work on the movement alone. So part of the frustration of the owners of vintage watches is the insistence to do cosmetic work that they don't deem necessary. FFS, though inverse, AP wouldn't supply me with a pair of replacement hands without servicing the movement, which would be like Ferrari insisting on a valve job when asked to replace a headlight housing.

I also didn't make myself completely clear, as I did not mean to imply that most vintage owners of such watches would want sub-standard servicing of the movements, but rather competent ones, that allow them to function well and safely. I'm fairly certain that such servicing can and is performed by many of your colleagues around the world on watches like the one in question, and not infrequently.
 
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Thanks Al. I view it a bit differently, as these companies are typically unwilling to work on the movement alone. So part of the frustration of the owners of vintage watches is the insistence to do cosmetic work that they don't deem necessary.

Well, since I've stated that I make my living for this exact reason, I'm not sure how we see this differently.

In this instance though, there is no indication that any of the work on this watch was going to be of a cosmetic nature. Again from what you quoted, only movement work is mentioned:

"I didn't share the details of their diagnosis in my post. They are exhaustive and involve the replacement of much of the movement, re-testing, etc. I don't want that, because I'm not interested in it as a perfectly functioning watch. My hunch is that the folks I'll take it to will be able to do what I want and at a reasonable price too."

I also didn't make myself completely clear, as I did not mean to imply that most vintage owners of such watches would want sub-standard servicing of the movements, but rather competent ones, that allow them to function well and safely. I'm fairly certain that such servicing can and is performed by many of your colleagues around the world on watches like the one in question, and not infrequently.

Note that he says he's not interested in a "perfectly functioning watch" which is, in my view what a "competent" service does. But I suppose our definition of competent in this case may be different.

Cheers, Al
 
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In this instance though, there is no indication that any of the work on this watch was going to be of a cosmetic nature

I'd wager dollars to doughnuts (though with inflation, it has lost its original meaning) that there was cosmetic work included in the estimate.

Cheers,

Tony
 
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I'd wager dollars to doughnuts (though with inflation, it has lost its original meaning) that there was cosmetic work included in the estimate.

Cheers,

Tony

No evidence of that, but speculation is this entire thread, so sure.
 
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@Archer: there are specifics about the aforementioned watch that we are not aware and as you explained, there may exist real damage in important parts that requires proper disassembly and close inspection to assess the need for replacement and I agree with that.

What personally I find disturbing is the 'my way or the highway' approach that manufacturers have (including Omega) when you send your watch for service.

The approach of making the watch 'look like new', will impose changes that I personally cannot agree (e.g. replacing dials, hands, polishing the case, etc).

The unwillingness to listen to what the *owner* wants and provide further feedback is also disappointing.

All that bad attitude with a 17K bill on top (and not providing independent watchmakers access to parts) certainly makes me re-think the idea of ever buying a PP.

On the other hand, it is precisely the bad attitude of manufacturers that ensure that watch lovers will keep relying on the good services of a local watchmaker.
😀
 
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What personally I find disturbing is the 'my way or the highway' approach that manufacturers have (including Omega) when you send your watch for service.

Me as well, but "it is what it is" so until people speak up, there's not going to be any changing this. And by speaking up I don't mean ranting on a forum, but making your concerns known to these companies directly. But understand that no watch company is going to agree to let you do a mediocre service of the movement, so you may eventually get concessions on cosmetics, but that's all I would ever hope for.

The approach of making the watch 'look like new', will impose changes that I personally cannot agree (e.g. replacing dials, hands, polishing the case, etc).

Again I agree completely. And in the case of the Omegas we all love, this is a major issue clearly.

However in this example, not so much. Tony is convinced that there is some I assume significant cosmetic work to be done here, this is one area where we can clearly see from photos at least a good portion of what might be needed from a cosmetic perspective...my observations are as follows:

We have a watch that is in overall good condition, that has what appears to be an undamaged enamel dial - nothing to be done there.

The hands are solid gold, and have no apparent damage - as long as they fit the posts with the appropriate friction, there's nothing to be done here.

The case is in overall good condition, but it would not be unusual for them to replace hinge pins if they are loose (can't tell from photos), and I suspect they will repair the slight damage to the case where it appears someone has used a knife to open it. Not much to be done here.

I remain unconvinced that there is much in the way of cosmetic work here, because it's not the type of watch that lends itself to a lot of that sort of work, unlike a painted dial, painted hands, lume, and the other things that are common on watches like Speedmasters.

On the other hand, it is precisely the bad attitude of manufacturers that ensure that watch lovers will keep relying on the good services of a local watchmaker.
😀

This is great, but keep in mind that watchmaker numbers are dwindling over time. They are retiring and dying of quicker than they are being replaced, and this is why they are all booked solid, and why I turn away watches every single day because there's no way I could do them all.

This is why brands are using "selective assembly" in servicing, where they train unskilled labour to do a small portion of the movement's assembly, and the movement moves down what is like an assembly line. The watchmaker only does the very final tweaks and testing. This is becoming very common now, and some large brands are using this for servicing of modern watches. They still try to train new watchmakers, but clearly they can't replace them fast enough, so this is the alternative.

This situation is not going to get better, and with brands restricting parts, or making them so expensive that guys like me have a hard time competing with the brand's rates and still make a living, things will get interesting down the road. If there is anything that is going to kill the interest in vintage watches, this will be it. So if you have a local guy that does good work, take good care of him, because if he tells you to take a hike, you may not find a replacement. 😀

Cheers, Al
 
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This situation is not going to get better, and with brands restricting parts, or making them so expensive that guys like me have a hard time competing with the brand's rates and still make a living, things will get interesting down the road. If there is anything that is going to kill the interest in vintage watches, this will be it. So if you have a local guy that does good work, take good care of him, because if he tells you to take a hike, you may not find a replacement. 😀

Right on.
 
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AP will (or did a few years ago) provide an estimate of service costs, without requiring any commitment. I declined, and the watch was returned from Switzerland on their dime.

I find it very hard to believe that Patek (or Rolex) would restore a watch without providing an initial estimate.
They didn’t restore it. That is the before picture of the watch. He sent it in and the cost and time was the quote they sent back.
 
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This situation is not going to get better, and with brands restricting parts, or making them so expensive that guys like me have a hard time competing with the brand's rates and still make a living, things will get interesting down the road. If there is anything that is going to kill the interest in vintage watches, this will be it.
Restricting parts availability can also help keep a brand's watchmakers from going out on their own after they have been fully trained and gained a lot of experience with that brand. I'm sure at some level it helps them protect their investment in the watchmakers.