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Patek Gondolo service: 17K and 83 weeks
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Evitzee
·I do not believe that those are for vintage watches. In fact, I am certain that the costs would be significantly higher, and that estimates would only be produced after the watch has been inspected in Switzerland.
UPDATE – Confirmed after a quick search (from the AP website; bold emphasis mine):
Our service prices are valid only for mechanical watches which were produced within the last 25 years and quartz watches which were produced within the last 15 years. Service prices for older watches are available upon request.
The list of service prices published below are those charged to final customers in our boutique in Geneva, Place de la Fusterie. It does not preclude our authorised independent repairers and authorised independent resellers from freely determining the service prices for final customers.
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valkyrie_rider
·A few photos of the watch can be found here: https://imgur.com/gallery/cyC7Wbh
In my non-watchmaker eyes, it doesn't seem like a ruined movement requiring 17K dollars of custom parts manufacturing.
I see no rust, no broken jewels, cogs/wheels in good state, no apparently missing parts, even screw heads look fine.
In my non-watchmaker eyes, it doesn't seem like a ruined movement requiring 17K dollars of custom parts manufacturing.
I see no rust, no broken jewels, cogs/wheels in good state, no apparently missing parts, even screw heads look fine.
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Tony C.
··Ωf Jury memberPatently absurd. The rationalization would likely be along the lines of them wanting the watch to "appear as it did when it left the factory".
For a few hundred dollars and a competent independent watchmaker, that watch would live up well to anyone's reasonable standards.
These companies do not want this kind of business (e.g. vintage repair), and for a variety of reasons. So they charge absurd prices in order to discourage customers.
For a few hundred dollars and a competent independent watchmaker, that watch would live up well to anyone's reasonable standards.
These companies do not want this kind of business (e.g. vintage repair), and for a variety of reasons. So they charge absurd prices in order to discourage customers.
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BlackTalon
··This Space for RentI'll do it for $16,500.
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Archer
··Omega Qualified WatchmakerA few photos of the watch can be found here: https://imgur.com/gallery/cyC7Wbh
I my non-watchmaker eyes, it doesn't seem like a ruined movement requiring 17K dollars of custom parts manufacturing.
I see no rust, no broken jewels, cogs/wheels in good state, no apparently missing parts, even screw heads look fine.
The only way that the condition of the parts can be determined, is to completely disassemble the watch, clean all the parts, and inspect them individually under a microscope. It's not a matter of having "watchmaker eyes" or not, no one can tell what is required just looking at these photos.
To give you an example, here's a couple of movement photos of a watch I'm working on right now:
Like the PP above, nothing seems obviously wrong...yet here are some of the parts:
Of all the wheels in this watch, only two were not replaced - the balance wheel and the escape wheel (balance wheel pivot on one end was burnished however). Everything else needed replacing, along with a few other parts. Even having this watch in front of me and using a microscope to look at the movement prior to disassembly, did not tell me that any of these parts needed replacing.
I'm not arguing that the price is reasonable, because I don't have the information regarding what needs replacing, and what is required to actually replace it. In this case there were several hundred dollars of readily available parts that were replaced, but if each of these had to be made from scratch, it's certainly going to get expensive very quickly. The fact is, none of us know what is in need of replacing or what that entails as far as costs go...
I could give you many similar examples where the movement looks "just fine" but when you get it apart, there are worn parts everywhere. It's just not as simple as looking at the movement.
Cheers, Al
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Tony C.
··Ωf Jury memberAl makes excellent points. However, I think it fair to say that a superficially well-preserved watch, as this one appears to be, is less likely to have seriously degraded parts than those which have obviously been neglected. Furthermore, the Gondola was an extremely successful line for PP, manufactured and sold over a span of nearly 30 years. So the likelihood of parts needing to be made from scratch would be much lower, one would think, than for their typically low-production models.
I agree with Al that we can't really know what might actually be required, but if there were a specific breakdown of the individual costs of service, I would be very skeptical that the true value would be anything like $17k.
Finally, most owners of a watch like this are not going to use it on anything like a regular basis. It would typically be used for display, and infrequent use. Given that context, the need for re-manufactured or expensive replacement parts becomes a dubious proposition.
I just found this, which is consistent with my point above, from the eloquent owner of the watch:
I agree with Al that we can't really know what might actually be required, but if there were a specific breakdown of the individual costs of service, I would be very skeptical that the true value would be anything like $17k.
Finally, most owners of a watch like this are not going to use it on anything like a regular basis. It would typically be used for display, and infrequent use. Given that context, the need for re-manufactured or expensive replacement parts becomes a dubious proposition.
I just found this, which is consistent with my point above, from the eloquent owner of the watch:
I didn't share the details of their diagnosis in my post. They are exhaustive and involve the replacement of much of the movement, re-testing, etc. I don't want that, because I'm not interested in it as a perfectly functioning watch. My hunch is that the folks I'll take it to will be able to do what I want and at a reasonable price too.
My issue is that Patek Philippe seemed to be tone deaf to my modest requests, and provided an assessment that I did not ask for. A simple "Thank you but sorry, we don't do that" would have sufficed. Instead, I received a yawn-inducing and eye-widening message that referenced their skill and that went on to itemise the work they found was necessary, nay, "mandatory." I am not sure why a watch brand feels it necessary to advertise its competence to someone who already owns one of their timepieces. Nor do I welcome the tone, as though used to impose authority.
There are few people in my orbit who would part with US$515 for a whimsical learning experience, but this is how I approached this. What I learnt is that Patek Philippe doesn't do human interaction too well, nor does it seem to be set up to approach heritage as a two-sided relationship. As I have noted elsewhere, brands manufacture watches, but it is we the collectors and enthusiasts who give them life.
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Fritz
·When My local watchmaker was trying to sell me a Chronometro Gondolo we had the back off and a good dig around under the loop. While the quality of the watch was without question and that particular piece in fantastic condition I did find the watch sadly lacking. As a collector of American railroad watches I’m used to seeing really beautifully finished movements that are in many cases a shame to hide inside a case. The Patek was just a plain watch of very good quality. But there was nothing there that said “buy me and take me home” like any of my old railway watches of the same vintage.
likely just as well.... saved me 17 grand on the next service?
likely just as well.... saved me 17 grand on the next service?
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Oku
·I did find the watch sadly lacking
The Patek was just a plain watch of very good quality.
But the concept of a Chronometro Gondolo and also a Vacheron Chronometre Royal is completely different. These are chronometers made for exact timing. So the focus was on a perfectly running movement with clear design that does not detract from the timing purpose.
Just a little side note: There are many pocket wach collectors who prefer those watches to decorated American movements.
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Archer
··Omega Qualified WatchmakerAl makes excellent points. However, I think it fair to say that a superficially well-preserved watch, as this one appears to be, is less likely to have seriously degraded parts than those which have obviously been neglected.
This would appear to confirm that indeed, the movement was in poor condition, despite appearances:
"I didn't share the details of their diagnosis in my post. They are exhaustive and involve the replacement of much of the movement, re-testing, etc. I don't want that, because I'm not interested in it as a perfectly functioning watch. My hunch is that the folks I'll take it to will be able to do what I want and at a reasonable price too."
This is why making generalizations really isn't useful in an individual case. Someone looking at a photo on a forum is not going to have a better understanding of a particular watch and what it requires than the person who has it in their hands, and has inspected parts first hand. One can argue the price of the work involved if they wish, but the scope of work is best known by the person who is quoting the work.
I have to say the person who sent the watch to PP for this estimate, who isn't "interested in a perfectly functioning watch" is a bit clueless. It's a bit like smacking your head against the wall repeatedly, and then going on line to complain that doing so gave you a headache, and everyone chiming in to to support you and blaming the wall. It's ridiculous.
No self respecting watchmaker (let alone a major brand) is going to lower their standards and do a less than competent job, just because that's what someone wants. If you want shitty service, trust me there are plenty of "watchmakers" out there who will put the watch back together with worn parts, charge you the going rate of $250 or whatever, and send you on your way. PP is never going to operate that way, and frankly neither would I.
Cheers, Al
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Archer
··Omega Qualified WatchmakerI perfectly understand what you mean when comparing the Patek to watches for the American market.
But the concept of a Chronometro Gondolo and also a Vacheron Chronometre Royal is completely different. These are chronometers made for exact timing. So the focus was on a perfectly running movement with clear design that does not detract from the timing purpose.
Just a little side note: There are many pocket wach collectors who prefer those watches to decorated American movements.
Some like steak, and some like sizzle...
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Fritz
·I perfectly understand what you mean when comparing the Patek to watches for the American market.
But the concept of a Chronometro Gondolo and also a Vacheron Chronometre Royal is completely different. These are chronometers made for exact timing. So the focus was on a perfectly running movement with clear design that does not detract from the timing purpose.
Just a little side note: There are many pocket wach collectors who prefer those watches to decorated American movements.
as a reference, the railroad watches are adjusted to five or six position and must hold 30 seconds a week.
and they are expected to do this under rough conditions for many years.
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Archer
··Omega Qualified Watchmakeryeah okay, I’m a sizzle guy...
and don’t get me wrong, that Patek was a beautifully made machine, to the very highest standard.
just no sizzle🙁
Not a criticism, just reality. Some people love skeletonized movements for example, but personally I find the designs typically so overdone that they are a distraction more than anything.
Life would be boring if we all liked the same things.
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Tony C.
··Ωf Jury memberNo self respecting watchmaker (let alone a major brand) is going to lower their standards and do a less than competent job, just because that's what someone wants. If you want shitty service, trust me there are plenty of "watchmakers" out there who will put the watch back together with worn parts, charge you the going rate of $250 or whatever, and send you on your way. PP is never going to operate that way, and frankly neither would I.
I think that the above is a false dichotomy, Al. You are suggesting that there were only two possibilities, a $17k service from PP, or a "shitty" service from some independent watchmaker. I think that most readers who are appalled by the cost estimate would reasonably assume that it would be possible to provide a competent service of the movement for a small fraction of that cost.
Yes, it's true that we don't know the details of the precise condition of all of the parts, but I find it extremely difficult to believe that a competent service would amount to anywhere close to $17k, or two to three times the value of the watch itself, in parts and labor.
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Archer
··Omega Qualified WatchmakerI think that the above is a false dichotomy, Al. You are suggesting that there were only two possibilities, a $17k service from PP, or a "shitty" service from some independent watchmaker. I think that most readers who are appalled by the cost estimate would reasonably assume that it would be possible to provide a competent service of the movement for a small fraction of that cost.
Do you believe that PP sells parts for this watch? I would be VERY surprised if they do. So what is the independent watchmaker going to do to replace those worn or damaged parts?
Is he going to recut wheels by hand? Recut pinions as well?
Or for wheels where it's just the pivots that are worn out, are they going to repivot all those?
Are they going to cut new jewels for those that might be worn or cracked?
Unfortunately what is "reasonably assumed" by people who have no idea what the work actually involves, is often not anywhere close to reality.
Yes, it's true that we don't know the details of the precise condition of all of the parts, but I find it extremely difficult to believe that a competent service would amount to anywhere close to $17k, or two to three times the value of the watch itself, in parts and labor.
As I said, you can argue the cost of this all you want - don't care about that. The scope of work however, is a different thing.
