Out of the watch hobby for 4 years- what did I miss?

meglos · Apr 6, 2022

Reasons I didn't buy a Rolex even though I theoretically could have afforded one:
1. Don't like to participate in a market where I feel like I am being manipulated by others (Rolex, AD's, Grey Market dealers, and/or Flippers.) Paying above retail for a currently available product (non-limited edition) is just silly just wait or move on to something else where there aren't a bunch of mind-games going on. Rolex could easily crack down by purchasing some of these watches off the grey market dealers and finding the common AD's and flippers and cut them off. When I sold audio gear at least one manufacturer used to do this to clean house of bad dealers.
2. Don't want to beg or kiss anyone's A$$ to sell me anything, especially when I consider it a lot of money. I should feel like they want to earn my business and they value it. "Hey, here's my money, I didn't ask for or expect a discount, and it meets the retail price. Can I walk out with it on my wrist today or will you have to order it and deliver in a reasonable amount of time?" On my birthday I decided it was time to buy my first brand new luxury watch. I walked into an Omega dealer, tried on all of the contenders (6-8 watchers which were all in stock), made a decision, walked out of the store in less than an hour with it on my wrist and enjoyed the rest of my day and my newest prized possession.
3. Rolex is so ubiquitous and so many other companies have taken design ideas from them they don't feel fresh, unique, or innovative. Just resting on reputation and past glory. Not their fault but it's a reality. There are so many Sub, Date Just, and Daytona clones it devalues them in my eyes. I know that imitation is supposed to be the highest form of flattery but it isn't in this case.
4. Rolex watches never take major risks or come out with anything dramatically different. A Rolex always looks like a Rolex. I could place five Omega's on a table (Plo-Prof, Aqua Terra, Speedmaster, Sea Master, and De Ville) with the name obscured and most non-watch people would never guess they are from the same company. You might love some and hate others but isn't that a good thing? The same can't be said for Rolex. It's all same-same or at best same-similar.
5. Omega speaks to my to me. The history, the length and breadth of their offerings, the innovations, the no BS sales process, and the lack of overt snobbery. I'm in team Omega.

TDBK · Apr 6, 2022

All the talk about Rolex market aside, in the last 4 years Omega has markedly reduced their dependence on limited edition watches, increased their supply chain control, reduced discounting, and raised their prices.

Evitzee · Apr 6, 2022

TDBK
All the talk about Rolex market aside, in the last 4 years Omega has markedly reduced their dependence on limited edition watches, increased their supply chain control, reduced discounting, and raised their prices.

In other words, they are somewhat following the Rolex and AP model; tightly control supply, control the number of retail doors, and keep the hype machine going.

Leviathan · Apr 7, 2022

M Alan Cook
3. Rolex is so ubiquitous and so many other companies have taken design ideas from them they don't feel fresh, unique, or innovative. Just resting on reputation and past glory. Not their fault but it's a reality. There are so many Sub, Date Just, and Daytona clones it devalues them in my eyes. I know that imitation is supposed to be the highest form of flattery but it isn't in this case.
4. Rolex watches never take major risks or come out with anything dramatically different. A Rolex always looks like a Rolex. I could place five Omega's on a table (Plo-Prof, Aqua Terra, Speedmaster, Sea Master, and De Ville) with the name obscured and most non-watch people would never guess they are from the same company. You might love some and hate others but isn't that a good thing? The same can't be said for Rolex. It's all same-same or at best same-similar.

I agree with all your points except for point #3 (that’s not to say it’s “wrong”—I simply disagree).

Other companies copy Rolex designs because Rolex is the industry benchmark and standard. No one copies an Omega Seamaster Diver as the exemplary dive watch or a AT as the exemplary casual watch, for example (and I say that as an owner of several Omegas). Rolex has cemented their benchmark status over the decades by creating the best pound-for-pound watch for every purpose (chrono, diver, gmt, dress, etc.).

The only thing that has changed over the past years is accessibility ($$). Despite this, I still think Rolex makes the best watches in the mid-range category and the demand for them is a good indication of that.

cvalue13 · Apr 7, 2022

Evitzee
In other words, they are somewhat following the Rolex and AP model; tightly control supply, control the number of retail doors, and keep the hype machine going.

and: don’t make a limited *edition,’ when you can make limited *production*

Archer · Apr 7, 2022

Leviathan
I still think Rolex makes the best watches in the mid-range category and the demand for them is a good indication of that.

Well, the most desired in the range doesn't necessarily equal the best watches. I don't think the average Rolex buyer knows enough about watches to make their judgement on the quality of the watch. It's more likely that they have heard that Rolex is "the best" and that's the one they get.

gbesq · Apr 7, 2022

Leviathan
I agree with all your points except for point #3 (that’s not to say it’s “wrong”—I simply disagree).

Other companies copy Rolex designs because Rolex is the industry benchmark and standard. No one copies an Omega Seamaster Diver as the exemplary dive watch or a AT as the exemplary casual watch, for example (and I say that as an owner of several Omegas). Rolex has cemented their benchmark status over the decades by creating the best pound-for-pound watch for every purpose (chrono, diver, gmt, dress, etc.).

The only thing that has changed over the past years is accessibility ($$). Despite this, I still think Rolex makes the best watches in the mid-range category and the demand for them is a good indication of that.

On the other hand, I don’t think that you can say that Omega got the idea for the Speedmaster from the Rolex Daytona. Kind of the reverse, isn’t it? Also, Rolex has certainly not created the best watch “pound for pound” in every category unless you define “best” as the most recognized brand by the general public. There are a number of watch manufacturers, Omega included, that have produced timepieces that are more sophisticated from a technical standpoint than anything that Rolex has ever manufactured.

Leviathan · Apr 7, 2022

Archer
Well, the most desired in the range doesn't necessarily equal the best watches. I don't think the average Rolex buyer knows enough about watches to make their judgement on the quality of the watch. It's more likely that they have heard that Rolex is "the best" and that's the one they get.

I have a no-date sub 114060, which is still running at a consistent +1 s/d (never serviced). It’s perfect, and always has been. On the other hand, I have two very recent Omega Master Chronometer watches with wide timekeeping margins (delta), a seconds hand that sometimes doesn’t hack when the crown is fully pulled out, and other minor/livable QC issues.

I’m no watchmaker, and the above is not a representative sample, but my anecdotal experience has shown me that Rolex is the best at this level.

Again, this is merely my opinion (and I still love Omegas).

Archer · Apr 7, 2022

Leviathan
I have a no-date sub 114060, which is still running at a consistent +1 s/d (never serviced). It’s perfect, and always has been. On the other hand, I have two very recent Omega Master Chronometer watches with wide timekeeping margins (delta), a seconds hand that sometimes doesn’t hack when the crown is fully pulled out, and other minor/livable QC issues.

I’m no watchmaker, and the above is not a representative sample, but my anecdotal experience has shown me that Rolex is the best at this level.

Again, this is merely my opinion (and I still love Omegas).

Well, this discussion brings up the obvious question - how to define "best"...

You have now added context surrounding that question that was completely absent in your last post, so I guess that's a start.

But for a moment if we agree that Rolex makes the best at this level, I would still very much question if this a true correlation to being the most desired. I just don't think the average buyer (not talking about WIS here) really knows much about what they are buying, other than it's reputation and brand name.

dennisthemenace · Apr 7, 2022

M Alan Cook
5. Omega speaks to my to me. The history, the length and breadth of their offerings, the innovations, the no BS sales process, and the lack of overt snobbery. I'm in team Omega.

You forgot to mention the big discounts on just about every model Omega sells, and the absence of waiting lists.
Ever asked yourself why that is?

Leviathan · Apr 7, 2022

Archer
Well, this discussion brings up the obvious question - how to define "best"...

You have now added context surrounding that question that was completely absent in your last post, so I guess that's a start.

But for a moment if we agree that Rolex makes the best at this level, I would still very much question if this a true correlation to being the most desired. I just don't think the average buyer (not talking about WIS here) really knows much about what they are buying, other than it's reputation and brand name.

Well, we can’t deny desirability isn’t a factor that goes into determining what’s ‘best’.

Rolex is desirable because they built a brand centred around mass-produced, high-quality watches. They are rightfully reaping the benefits of this solid brand image built over the decades. It’s so strong, Rolex has turned into a de facto currency. You can exchange any semi-desirable Rolex anywhere you want in the world for cash. The brand is that strong, and these things don’t happen out of nothing.

I’m not going to speak about the technical intricacies of why, for example, a Rolex Cal. 3235 is better than an Omega Cal. 8800. These are things you can better shed light on as an expert watchmaker. I know it’s a very tight race, and Rolex is probably only marginally better than Omega (nothing worthy of justifying the insane price differential).

My anecdotal experience has led me to that conclusion from the limited sample I have had the privilege of owning.

Archer · Apr 7, 2022

Leviathan
Well, we can’t deny desirability isn’t a factor that goes into determining what’s ‘best’.

McDonald's is by all accounts extremely popular, but I don't believe that anyone would argue that their food is the best you can buy for the money they charge.

Personally, how others may desire a watch has nothing to do with my view regarding if it is the "best" in the price range.

Leviathan
I’m not going to speak about the technical intricacies of why, for example, a Rolex Cal. 3235 is better than an Omega Cal. 8800.

Interesting example given how much trouble Rolex is having the the 3235...look if you believe it is "best" then that's all that matters to you, but I don't believe for one minute that the popularity of Rolex watches in any way proves that point.

There is so much pure speculation in the Rolex market, that many who are buying them don't care if it's a watch, or a beanie baby, for them it's just a way to make some cash...

M'Bob · Apr 7, 2022

I’m sure we could collectively cobble together a list which includes things like model similarity, price, history, aesthetics, reliability, ease and cost of service, price, etc. Then do a comparison side by side. Excluding the hype ( and I do like Rolex, and own them) I think if one thinks Rolex is “the best,” Omega is probably as good, better, or just behind.

Leviathan · Apr 7, 2022

Archer
McDonald's is by all accounts extremely popular, but I don't believe that anyone would argue that their food is the best you can buy for the money they charge.

Personally, how others may desire a watch has nothing to do with my view regarding if it is the "best" in the price range.

Interesting example given how much trouble Rolex is having the the 3235...look if you believe it is "best" then that's all that matters to you, but I don't believe for one minute that the popularity of Rolex watches in any way proves that point.

There is so much pure speculation in the Rolex market, that many who are buying them don't care if it's a watch, or a beanie baby, for them it's just a way to make some cash...

Rolex isn’t McDonald’s… not sure on what basis such a comparison is made, but I don’t think that’s fair.

And I never said the 3235 movement is the “best”. I never wrote or remotely alluded to such an idea (I said I won’t argue on the technicalities, since I’m no expert).

Bottom line, Rolex makes one heck of a watch and no one can deny that in good faith. It’s the reason it’s the industry benchmark. Whether their watches are hyped, overvalued, airheads buying it… etc. that’s really all besides the point.

I mean… the mere reason half the posts on this thread are about Rolex kind of proves the point.

PS: this isn’t a zero sum game. You don’t need to hate Rolex to love Omega (or vice versa). I enjoy both equally, despite having a very slightly stronger affinity to the 5-point crown.

gbesq · Apr 7, 2022

dennisthemenace
You forgot to mention the big discounts on just about every model Omega sells, and the absence of waiting lists.
Ever asked yourself why that is?

I purchased my JLC Master Ultra Thin Moon, which is one hell of a nice watch, at a discount and there was no waiting list. I never bothered to ask why that Is, Dennis, but perhaps you’ll enlighten us.

Archer · Apr 7, 2022

Leviathan
Rolex isn’t McDonald’s… not sure on what basis such a comparison is made, but I don’t think that’s fair.

It's not a comparison - it's an illustration that because something is very popular, doesn't mean that it is proven to be the best.

Leviathan
And I never said the 3235 movement is the “best”. I never wrote or remotely alluded to such an idea (I said I won’t argue on the technicalities, since I’m no expert).

Well, despite not being a movement expert, you have said Rolex is the best. If that claim doesn't extend to their movements in your mind, then that's fine too.

Leviathan
Bottom line, Rolex makes one heck of a watch and no one can deny that in good faith. It’s the reason it’s the industry benchmark. Whether their watches are hyped, overvalued, airheads buying it… etc. that’s really all besides the point.

They make a fine watch. I've never said anything different. Being the best though is a different claim.

Leviathan
PS: this isn’t a zero sum game. You don’t need to hate Rolex to love Omega (or vice versa). I enjoy both equally, despite having a very slightly stronger affinity to the 5-point crown.

I don't hate Rolex or Omega - I own them both.

You can keep getting stuck in the weeds of this if you want, but my only point is that because Rolex is the "most desired" that doesn't mean it is the best. As I've said, there are many reasons it's desired currently, and some have nothing to do with the watch at all - many see it as an investment, and don't even wear them. To say that the popularity proves anything other than they are popular, is very much a stretch in my opinion.

Cheers, Al

Scooterino36 · Apr 7, 2022

Leviathan
I have a no-date sub 114060, which is still running at a consistent +1 s/d (never serviced). It’s perfect, and always has been. On the other hand, I have two very recent Omega Master Chronometer watches with wide timekeeping margins (delta), a seconds hand that sometimes doesn’t hack when the crown is fully pulled out, and other minor/livable QC issues.

I’m no watchmaker, and the above is not a representative sample, but my anecdotal experience has shown me that Rolex is the best at this level.

Again, this is merely my opinion (and I still love Omegas).

Where I most disagree with you, is that timekeeping, in your view, is the predominant indication of which watch is "best", and I would say from my view perhaps it's about 1/5th of what matters. Also, whether it's operating within designed spec or not, is really how I judge this category.

I think design, materials, innovations, and quality control of parts and preparation of assembly are far more important indicator than x seconds per day deviations.

Leviathan · Apr 7, 2022

Archer
Well, despite not being a movement expert, you have said Rolex is the best. If that claim doesn't extend to their movements in your mind, then that's fine too.

They make a fine watch. I've never said anything different. Being the best though is a different claim.

I said best, pound-for-pound, in the mid-level luxury watch segment. I never said they were the “absolute” best, just “relatively” among the mid-level brands. I’ve maintained that stance across all my posts—and many would agree with that claim. No one is comparing a Rolex to PP or ALS. We’re comparing them to Omegas, Breitlings, Cartiers, Panerai’s etc.

And yes, I’m not a “movement expert”, but a movement rated at -2/+2 sec/day (usually even better on wrist), instantaneous date change, anti-magnetism, shock absorbent, etc. the whole works… that should mean something.

Again, this is simply my opinion. My opinion is largely subjective and anecdotal, with some valid/objective underpinnings nonetheless.

Leviathan · Apr 7, 2022

Scooterino36
quality control of parts and preparation of assembly are far more important indicator than x seconds per day deviations.

Again, not to bash on Omega because I love the brand and it’s products but I’ve had more quality control issues with my modern Omegas than any other comparable watches I own. Both my modern Omegas have needed to go out to the authorized service centre for QC fixes.

Again, this is merely my experience and is not a blanket judgement. As I mentioned previously, my two watches are not a representative sample, and these issues exist across the board.

dennisthemenace · Apr 7, 2022

gbesq
I purchased my JLC Master Ultra Thin Moon, which is one hell of a nice watch, at a discount and there was no waiting list. I never bothered to ask why that Is, Dennis, but perhaps you’ll enlighten us.

Well it might be a bit difficult for you to comprehend, but when you are selling watches at an asking price very few people are willing to pay, you either discount or go out of business.

Out of the watch hobby for 4 years- what did I miss?

meglos

TDBK

Evitzee

Leviathan

cvalue13

Archer

gbesq

Leviathan

Archer

dennisthemenace

Leviathan

Archer

M'Bob

Leviathan

gbesq

Archer

Scooterino36

Leviathan

Leviathan

dennisthemenace

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