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Other IWC Genta Designs

97'vintage
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The current IWC catalogue celebrates the Ref 1832 as Genta's IWC. No mention of him designing other IWCs, but this might be marketing: The new Ingenieur shouldn't be one among many.

However, I've heard rumers about him designing the Yacht Club Ref. 811, the Yacht Club II Ref. 3211, the Golf Club Ref. 1830, the Polo Club Ref. 1831 and the original Quartz Da Vinci Ref. 3074.

Note the Ingenieur, Polo Club and Golf Club being Ref 1830, 1831 and 1832!

_________________________________________________________________________________________

Update:

Positive:
- Ingenieur Ref. 1832
- unreleased chronograph scetch

Negative:
All others mentioned above. The only released IWC watch by Genta is the Ingenieur 1832. Qoute: IWC Heritage Concierge (see screenshots in this threat).
__________________________________________________________________________________________

Picture: Ref 1832 Ingenieur (Bachmann & Scher)

uhr-aufmacherbild.jpg
Edited:
 
Tony C.
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As mentioned on the related thread, it is stated on the IWC site that:

Two other notable watches in the SL line were the Golf Club and Polo Club, neither of which were designed by Genta.

It would be difficult to believe that they have it wrong!
 
watchyouwant
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The current IWC catalogue celebrates the Ref 1832 as Genta's IWC. No mention of him designing other IWCs, but this might be marketing: The new Ingenieur shouldn't be one among many.

However, I've heard rumers about him designing the Yacht Club Ref. 811, the Yacht Club II Ref. 3211, the Golf Club Ref. 1830, the Polo Club Ref. 1831 and the original Quartz Da Vinci Ref. 3074.

Note the Ingenieur, Polo Club and Golf Club being Ref 1830, 1831 and 1832!

Do you know more?

Picture: Ref 1832 Ingenieur (Bachmann & Scher)

uhr-aufmacherbild.jpg

Heard Rumours ? Where ? Why not ask IWC direct ? Would that add value and create a run on underappreciated models ?We live in a time of Rumours about everything , which is often not even helpful .
 
97'vintage
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watchyouwant watchyouwant
Heard Rumours ? Where ? Why not ask IWC direct ? Would that add value and create a run on underappreciated models ?We live in a time of Rumours about everything , which is often not even helpful .

Good points.

I've heard statements like "The Yacht Club II, designed Gerald Genta, uses either a quartz movement or a JLC-base automatic" on YouTube, Forums, dealer's websites or Instagram. Over the last four years, all the references in my opening post of this thread have been mentioned like this. Always with no reliable quotes. I can't imagine that he designed all the watches above. But I would be surprised if the 1832 Ingenieur was the only one. Fun fact: One of Genta's original drawings, which were auctioned off last year, showed an IWC chronograph that was never released. It looked like a Bell & Ross meets Cartier Pasha.

I could ask IWC directly. So far, I've never contacted a brand directly in order to get information. But that might be the first time. Great idea! Either way, I don't know if a mainstream, group-owned brand like IWC is interested in giving out all the information they have on this topic to a regular watch lover. As this might interfere with their marketing plans. But let's see what they say about that.

Now would that add value? Good question. Does a Rubens-quality painting suddenly get better because it's been recently proven to be painted by Rubens himself? Is any McCartney song brilliant because of the standing of its writer? Probably a "no" in both cases. But don't we get exited when we find out that our favorite artist has been involved in a project we didn't know about? 😉

I don't think a verification of Genta's involvement would suddenly create a run on Yacht Clubs and Quartz Da Vincis. The C-Shape Constellation is even listed under "iconic models" on the Genta Heritage website. I haven't seen price hikes on that model during the Genta craze of the last years.

You're right. Rumours aren't helpful most of the time, especially when attributing a watch to its designer. That's why I created this threat. I want to get information. Hopefully with reliable information. There's incredible expertise and knowledge in these older watch forums. Many people here are much longer into watches than I am and have seen and heard more stuff than I did. That's why I ask here.
 
97'vintage
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Update: The Yacht Club II is definately a Genta Design.

Chrono 24: "Der Kult-Designer Gérald Genta gab der Yacht Club 1977 ein neues Gesicht. Das Gehäuse der - gerne auch als Jumbo bezeichneten - Yacht Club II wuchs auf 38 mm an und wurde nun von einer breiten, achteckigen Lünette gekrönt. Aufgrund der Quarzkrise wurden diese Uhren hauptsächlich mit Quarzwerken verkauft. Varianten mit mechanischen Kalibern wie dem Manufakturwerk 8541 oder dem Kaliber 3254 auf Basis eines Jaeger-LeCoultre 889 wurden nur wenige Tausend Mal aufgelegt und sind heute begehrte Sammlerstücke." (IWC Yacht Club Uhren kaufen)

Bachmann und Scher: "This rare IWC model was produced between the late 1970s until the late 1980s. The design is cool and from the legend GERALD GENTA. The bezel is octagonal and beveled in its shape." (IWC Vintage YACHT CLUB II JUMBO GERALD GENTA Ref-3212 AUTOMATIC Steel Black Dial UNPOLISHED Bj-1978)

A Blog To Watch: "Perhaps the best way to explore what makes Genta a cult figure in the watch community is to contemplate one of his designs - in this case, the late ‘70s IWC Yacht Club II. Slender, elegant, and bursting with understated complexity, the IWC Yacht Club II distills many of Genta’s favorite design cues into a clean and restrained package, without the baggage of many of his more famous designs." (Time Machines: Delving Into The ‘Cult Of Genta’ With The IWC Yacht Club II Watch | aBlogtoWatch)

Hodinkee: "Introduced in the early '70s, the Yacht Club was part of a series of watches under the "SL" family name and designed by none other than Gerald Genta." (Join The Club: An Early Genta-Designed IWC Yacht Club)
 
Tony C.
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Update: The Yacht Club II is definately a Genta Design.

Really? What you apparently present as evidence to support your conclusion is actually nothing of the sort. All four of those references are commercial sites and/or dealers, and none have any connection to IWC. What that means is that they are not only unofficial sources of information, but also that they have incentive to hype (i.e. exaggerate or misrepresent) products.

A careful reading of the Hodinkee article reveals just how unreliable they are as a source of information:

Introduced in the early '70s, the Yacht Club was part of a series of watches sold under the "SL" family name and designed by none other than Gerald Genta.

No, the original Yacht Club was definitely NOT designed by Genta. So why should readers assume that any other related claims are accurate?

Frankly, your research on this topic, and especially the post above, suggest that you are being influenced by confirmation bias.

IWC itself makes references to Genta having designed the Ingenieur SL, Ref 1832, but I can find no similar claims relating to other models. Now why would that be? Are they proud of his Ingenieur design, but ashamed of other models that he designed? That seems rather unlikely, doesn't it?

While it is possible that Genta did design the Yacht Club II, what I suspect is this: he only designed the 1832 for IWC, and the others that are often associated with his name, such as the Polo Club, Golf Club, and Yacht Club, were, at best "inspired" by his designs. And through the echo-chambers of the internet, the myth that he designed other models for IWC was born.
 
97'vintage
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Tony C. Tony C.
Really? What you apparently present as evidence to support your conclusion is actually nothing of the sort. All four of those references are commercial sites and/or dealers, and none have any connection to IWC. What that means is that they are not only unofficial sources of information, but also that they have incentive to hype (i.e. exaggerate or misrepresent) products.

Thank you, Tony.

You might be right about confirmation bias. I've posted the same question on the German Uhrforum. A member there pointed the YCII out as a watch that is definitively designed by Genta. No quotes attached to his answer. So I tried again to find an answer to the question via Google. There were many sites claming that the YCII is a Genta design. The four quotes above among them, each from either respected voices in watch media or well-known dealers. A "there, we have it" moment.

But you're right. That's neighter a proof in the scientific sense nor evidence.

Maybe, I have false expectations for a forum: The only two voices that can really proof/disprove something here are IWC themselves or the Genta Heritage Association (which is run by Genta's family). Forums or websites would be an exeption to this if information is directly from IWC or Genta.
Otherwise,we get the same we already have which is rumers and echo-chambers.

I've sent a mail to the Genta Heritage Association. Let's see what's their reply to my question. On the IWC webiste, I only see the concierge contact and nothing related to heritage/museum. I will figure out how to contact them properly.

Tony C. Tony C.
IWC itself makes references to Genta having designed the Ingenieur SL, Ref 1832, but I can find no similar claims relating to other models. Now why would that be? Are they proud of his Ingenieur design, but ashamed of other models that he designed? That seems rather unlikely, doesn't it?

I see your point. It would be strange not to market other designs if they exist. Especially given how they advertise the new Ingenieur and how AP uses the Genta connection. My thought was, they market only the strongest and most iconic design so their collection doesn't cannibalise itself. But again, it definately is strong argument of yours.
 
Tony C.
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Thank you. It will be interesting to see what the Genta Heritage Association has to say.

One other factor worth considering is that Genta would presumably have been expensive to hire in the '70s, so it could be that IWC chose to use their in-house designers for some of the models we are discussing, and were able to incorporate some of his design cues, but without the associated cost.
 
97'vintage
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I received a very interesting message on the subject in the German Uhrforum:

"There are some reports circulating on the internet about the YC II and the Da Vinci 3501 with its alleged Genta reference. No one has been able to prove this and the old documents from Genta's company archive were probably disposed of decades ago. Since the master himself can no longer contribute to the clarification and the IWC Museum has not documented anything either, there will probably be no more reliable clarification.

Both watches have a number of clear Genta design features and the bracelet of the Da Vinci 3074 is even identical to that of the Jumbo Inge 1832 and 3003, which were undoubtedly designed by Genta."

I'm still looking forward to the answer from Genta Heritage. But perhaps this is a little warning to what their answer will look like.
 
Tony C.
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Interesting, but not surprising.
 
Tony C.
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Well, I would say that it is now official: the Ingenieur SL1832 was the only model designed by Genta. As mentioned earlier, though, I think it would be fair to argue that his influence may be seen in some other IWC models.

The response that I received from IWC (Switzerland):





Dear Mr. C*****,

Thank you for your message, and your interest in IWC Schaffhausen.

In reply to your inquiry, The Ingenieur SL1832 was designed by Gerald Genta. The following Ingenieurs have kept the design with the integrated bracelet. Moreover, the new Ingenieur Automatic 40 which was released in 2023 has the same code, and was approved by Genta's wife.

Regarding the Polo Golf Club Yacht Club, it was not design by Genta.

Hope this email will be useful, I remain at your disposal, and wish you, Mr. C*****, a lovely day,

Kind regards,
Edited:
 
97'vintage
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Wow, great to have these news. Tony, thank you for writing the mail and publishing it here. Can you also publish what your question to IWC exactly was?

I'm still waiting for the answer from the Genta Heritage Association. But I would be surprised if there is information in their response, that is now new to us. But either way, great to get another official voice.
 
Tony C.
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You're welcome. This was my request:

Could you please clarify which of the vintage IWC models were designed by Gerald Genta? I know that the Ingenieur SL, Ref 1832 was designed by him, but am unclear on some other models.

Were any of the following models designed by Mr. Genta, or was the 1832 the only one?

Polo Club
Golf Club
Yacht Club II

Thank you very much for your assistance.
 
97'vintage
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Tony C. Tony C.
Were any of the following models designed by Mr. Genta, or was the 1832 the only one?

Polo Club
Golf Club
Yacht Club II

Tony C. Tony C.
The Ingenieur SL1832 was designed by Gerald Genta. The following Ingenieurs have kept the design with the integrated bracelet. Moreover, the new Ingenieur Automatic 40 which was released in 2023 has the same code, and was approved by Genta's wife.

Regarding the Polo Golf Club Yacht Club, it was not design by Genta.

Okay, now that's clarifying that the 1832 is the only one and the Yacht Club II is definetly not a design by Genta himself. 😀
 
97'vintage
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I got the reply from IWC, too. Proving that Tony's results are indeed correct.
 
Screenshot (22).jpg.png WhatsApp Bild 2024-01-19 um 15.05.42_f34fbb14.jpg
Tony C.
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You felt the need to confirm my information? 🤦
 
97'vintage
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Tony C. Tony C.
You felt the need to confirm my information? 🤦

It's not like I didn't believe you. But scince we had the discussion about the reliablity of sources and quotes, I thought I'll do it correctly and get a double-secured result 😉
 
Tony C.
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lol!

So, it's not like you didn't believe me, but you thought, just in case, that it would be best to make sure that I hadn't forged a reply from IWC!

Apparently, your confirmation bias is accompanied by Semmelweis reflex.
 
97'vintage
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Tony, thanks for not only teaching me about watches but also about the theories of critical thinking 😉

Jokes aside, I am beyond thankful that you've pointed out my miskes about the Yacht Club! I really believed that it's an original Genta design at that moment, now we now better! Thanks to you. We've aquired an information that isn't obvious to everyone in watch world, even to those with a certain reach: https://www.instagram.com/p/C2MuWXWNs23/ (post is just two days old).

I am a newbie to researching stuff, I am not a professional scientist. But I didn't attack you personally, nor did I put your intentions and watch knowledge in question!

As you've pointed out, no forums member here can really prove anything: IWC and Genta are the only authorities here. I didn't think a huge brand like IWC would just answer questions like this, let alone within two days. Again, you've showed that it is different. So of course I will ask IWC the same question if it is that easy and get that information a second time myself. And if I get that answer, why not take the 30 seconds to post it here and everyone can see it's double-checked? Win-win for me and everyone that silently reads it now or years later.
Edited:
 
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