Need some very expert advice on this 321 Speedy dial (lots of pics)

[timoss]

Hi, folks-- The simple question is whether the darker areas around the lume plots can be considered "normal," ie original and consistent with age and dial type, etc. Or not.

Dial is from a late '67 production and to me the lume looks consistent with some other wide T dials of this era (and it glows and fades quickly under UV as expected). The "halo" I am asking about around the lume plots is not very visible in most circumstances; I did not notice this on the dial below until it was out from under the plexi, tilted at an angle, and in bright natural sunlight.

I know that "cloudy" residue around the lume plots can be a sign of a scraped and relumed dial (or perhaps a stabilized one), but this doesn't look QUITE the same (to me) as at least the more obvious scraped/relumed dials out there. Since noticing this, I have started to search around a bit and found several other apparently original dials which also have this sort of halo effect--in fact, I have seen some in the OF sales forum (example pic included below).

Eager to hear your opinions!

Now for the pics--all taken in bright natural sunlight, at different angles (the "halo" more visible in the ones toward the end).



Zoomed in:


And, finally, just for comparison, one from the OF sales forum:

 

[eugeneandresson]

Lume kinda looks what I would expect ... except for the black shadows around each plot (highlighted on the 12o'clock) ... which then makes things questionable.



Old school stabilization?

 

[timoss]

Yup. That's the whole question! Old school stabilization or "natural" effect? I certainly have not seen enough late '60s wide T dials close up/in person to know myself...

 

[MaiLollo]

When I see a pretty dial as a spare part, it always make me question it twice as much since I don't know many collectors who would sell a perfect dial and keep a lesser one in their watch...
Plus, the "wetness" you see around the plots and the plots consistency & colour makes me lean more towards the relume (I don't like the fact that the lume does not cover the whole index on a 145.012-67).

But with these exercises, it's always difficult to judge without the dial in hand, and it's most often a matter of opinions

Here is a closeup of what I would expect to see (even though its an EW and not a 145.012, its from a similar time frame)

 

[timoss]

Thanks for your reply!

 

[timoss]

I have seen some describe spots like these as normal aging on a 50 year old dial. I am not Rolex expert, that's for sure, but a guy selling a Rolex dial claimed this was normal:

 

[befobe]

If it can help, a zoom of my 145.012-67, December 1968 ...

 

[bgrisso]

timoss

Hi, folks-- The simple question is whether the darker areas around the lume plots can be considered "normal," ie original and consistent with age and dial type, etc. Or not.

Dial is from a late '67 production and to me the lume looks consistent with some other wide T dials of this era (and it glows and fades quickly under UV as expected). The "halo" I am asking about around the lume plots is not very visible in most circumstances; I did not notice this on the dial below until it was out from under the plexi, tilted at an angle, and in bright natural sunlight.

I know that "cloudy" residue around the lume plots can be a sign of a scraped and relumed dial (or perhaps a stabilized one), but this doesn't look QUITE the same (to me) as at least the more obvious scraped/relumed dials out there. Since noticing this, I have started to search around a bit and found several other apparently original dials which also have this sort of halo effect--in fact, I have seen some in the OF sales forum (example pic included below).

Eager to hear your opinions!

Now for the pics--all taken in bright natural sunlight, at different angles (the "halo" more visible in the ones toward the end).



Zoomed in:


And, finally, just for comparison, one from the OF sales forum:

I don't know about the loose dial, but that last pic of the watch for sale looks like a real stunner ! 😜

 

[Seaborg]

I'd say relume. Similarly to @eugeneandresson, those shadows around the plots are a red flag for me.

 

[airansun]

MaiLollo

I don't like the fact that the lume does not cover the whole index on a 145.012-67

Me neither. Only earlier dials (years earlier) have lume like that.

Seaborg

I'd say relume. Similarly to @eugeneandresson, those shadows around the plots are a red flag for me.

+1

 

[timoss]

airansun

Me neither.

Isn't that a fairly common feature of this vintage dial? Feel like I've ready many an OF thread on these... But yeah, the shadows are another thing entirely... thx for the feedback!

 

[timoss]

Oops! sorry technical difficulties: meant to say: isn't lume not covering the plots entirely a fairly common feature of this vintage dial? Agreed the shadows are a different story...

 

[airansun]

I think you have to go back to -63s and -64s to see lume applied that way.

I’ve never seen a 145.012 dial with lume like that.

Top, a 145.012-67’s lume

Bottom, a 2998-6’s lume

Of course, I’m prepared to be corrected. It’s happened before. 😉

 

[eugeneandresson]

To all the relumers : I am not so certain its a relume based on the anecdotal 'if it don't cover the plot whites completely'.

Lume looks kosher to many I have seen (and here is a fabulous one),



... and here are two more ...




... all 145.012's.

But the fact that it has those black wet looking surrounds means it is questionable ...

Edited: Oct 23, 2020

 

[timoss]

eugeneandresson

To all the relumers : I am not so certain its a relume based on the anecdotal 'if it don't cover the plot whites completely'.

Lume looks kosher to many I have seen (and here is a fabulous one),



... and here are two more ...


... all 145.012's.

But the fact that it has those black wet looking surrounds means it is questionable ...

Here's another one or two:
https://omegaforums.net/threads/ome...-with-excellent-don-bezel-extract-1039.89330/
https://omegaforums.net/threads/advice-on-a-pre-moon-speedy-321.39277/

 

[mac_omega]

I would not mind at all to have such a beautiful dial in my speedy... who cares about the dark shadows which can only be seeen under high magnification and under certain angles

 

[timoss]

mac_omega

I would not mind at all to have such a beautiful dial in my speedy... who cares about the dark shadows which can only be seeen under high magnification and under certain angles

That’s certainly a worthy point!

 

[ndgal]

Lume on the OP dial is original. Just been stabilized.
This “Worm-like” style of application if mostly common on the earlier batches of 145.012-67 dials made in early 1968.
Those are prone to flaking, hence why you see quite a lot of them that have been stabilized over the years.
Original & stabilized is always better than a relume or a washed dial in my book...

 

[ndgal]

befobe

If it can help, a zoom of my 145.012-67, December 1968 ...

Judging just by this one picture I do not like the look of this lume.

 

[befobe]

ndgal

Judging just by this one picture I do not like the look of this lume.

Normal... This is a re-lume !... 😁 But I like the crack on the hands... 😁