My first results

subehasta · Feb 4, 2020

Hello! This is my first post after introducing myself. Hope to be posting in the correct place. Sorry if not.

Starting the search of my first Constellation I found 2 examples on eBay of what, from my point of view would be nice watches, but I am working on originality and would like to share my thoughts with you in order to advance in my learning process.

The first one is a 168.0065 which I have read was the last pie pan and produced for the Japanese market, and I think the price would be good for an original unit. Looking at the item, most things seem correct, but the main issue I could find is the dial. I find differences between the two "A" of "AUTOMATIC", the two "E" of "CHRONOMETER" and the two "E" of "CERTIFIED". I think enough evidences of a redial.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Auth-OMEGA...ete-Automatic-Mens-Watch-Q-90093/223688315988

With the second one I have a similar problem. May be not as clear, but being a black dial the "too good to be truth" is in my mind. Again differences between the two "A" of "AUTOMATIC" and the "E" of "CHRONOMETER". May be not as clear as the previous one, but I think different.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-OM...TEEL-ORIGINAL-BLACK-DIAL-CAL-564/174177233716

Am I in the right way? I assume this kind of inconsistencies is not possible with factory dials.

Thank you very much for your time and help.

chronoboy64 · Feb 4, 2020

Please post pics and not links, thanks 👍

Peemacgee · Feb 5, 2020

subehasta
Hello! This is my first post after introducing myself. Hope to be posting in the correct place. Sorry if not.

Starting the search of my first Constellation I found 2 examples on eBay of what, from my point of view would be nice watches, but I am working on originality and would like to share my thoughts with you in order to advance in my learning process.

The first one is a 168.0065 which I have read was the last pie pan and produced for the Japanese market, and I think the price would be good for an original unit. Looking at the item, most things seem correct, but the main issue I could find is the dial. I find differences between the two "A" of "AUTOMATIC", the two "E" of "CHRONOMETER" and the two "E" of "CERTIFIED". I think enough evidences of a redial.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Auth-OMEGA...ete-Automatic-Mens-Watch-Q-90093/223688315988

With the second one I have a similar problem. May be not as clear, but being a black dial the "too good to be truth" is in my mind. Again differences between the two "A" of "AUTOMATIC" and the "E" of "CHRONOMETER". May be not as clear as the previous one, but I think different.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-OM...TEEL-ORIGINAL-BLACK-DIAL-CAL-564/174177233716

Am I in the right way? I assume this kind of inconsistencies is not possible with factory dials.

Thank you very much for your time and help.

welcome @subehasta
As @chronoboy64 says, it will help you get responses if you post pics not links.

regarding your comments, you can get obsessively critical if you’re not careful.

The 168.0065 has unusual text/fonts and you need to compare it to other 168.0065s.
The pics aren’t good enough to be absolutely sure but it looks fine to me.
However, the case is polished.

Black dials are always tricky and you’re right to be suspicious of them but whilst, once again, the pics aren’t great - this one from Alex looks correct to me.
Whilst the case isn’t super sharp it’s pretty good and you can expect the final price will be multiples of the current bid.
Pics for posterity:

gatorcpa · Feb 5, 2020

Here’s my opinion. Worth only what you paid for it:

First dial is original and correct. Fonts are supposed to a bit different than normal on this reference. Would like to see a movement picture.

Second dial looks original to me, but higher resolution pictures are needed. I have questions on the hands. They seem a bit too wide to me.

Not sure if this matters to you, but the second watch is going to be larger and thicker than the first one.

Hope this helps,
gatorcpa

subehasta · Feb 5, 2020

Thank you very much! And sorry, I didn't know is better to post pictures than links. Here are the pictures from the movements and the cases backs.

Thanks again for your help and time.

Peemacgee · Feb 5, 2020

Well, the first thing to say is that the 14393 from Alex is a real mongrel.
It has (at the very least) parts from a 564 when it should be a 561 and a case back from a 168.005 when it should be 14393.
I didn’t even look at the rest of the pics or description in his listing - just the dial.

I’ve just read the listing and it doesn’t mention the reference only the movt cal.
This is very poor from Alex as he knows only too well what he’s selling.
It has been mentioned before that you have to be very careful when buying from him.

the 168.0065 looks correct but has some rotor rub.

Edited with correct reference numbers
Edited again to express disappointment in seller of the 14393.

subehasta · Feb 5, 2020

Peemacgee
Well, the first thing to say is that the 14393 from Alex is a real mongrel.
It has (at the very least) parts from a 564 when it should be a 561 and a case back from a 168.005 when it should be 14393.
I didn’t even look at the rest of the pics or description in his listing - just the dial.

I’ve just read the listing and it doesn’t mention the reference only the movt cal.
This is very poor from Alex as he knows only too well what he’s selling.
It has been mentioned before that you have to be very careful when buying from him.

the 168.0065 looks correct but has some rotor rub.

Edited with correct reference numbers
Edited again to express disappointment in seller of the 14393.

subehasta · Feb 5, 2020

Thank you very much. I will be very careful with Àlex auctions knowing that. I knew 168.005 should have dog leg lugs but, being a begginer I didn’t know if I was missing something.

Regarding the rotor rub, how do yo identify it? Is the wear in the edges of the rotor? Does it mean the rotor has been sometime in contact with the case back and this wear can be a problem to perform its function in the future, or is just a cosmetic problem?

Sorry if I make silly questions, I am trying to learn as fast as I can

Thanks again for your time and help

Peemacgee · Feb 5, 2020

subehasta
Thank you very much. I will be very careful with Àlex auctions knowing that. I knew 168.005 should have dog leg lugs but, being a begginer I didn’t know if I was missing something.

Regarding the rotor rub, how do yo identify it? Is the wear in the edges of the rotor? Does it mean the rotor has been sometime in contact with the case back and this wear can be a problem to perform its function in the future, or is just a cosmetic problem?

Sorry if I make silly questions, I am trying to learn as fast as I can

Thanks again for your time and help

No problem - The only silly questions are the ones not asked.

it’s good that you know that a 168.005 is a dogleg (also 14900, 14902 & 167.005 plus 168.0065 of course)
Try to learn the different case references and know that the wrong reference case back should never (correctly) be paired with a different case reference.

regarding the rotor rub -if you look at the rotor you can see black debris and the angle of the rotor shows as a highlight - sure signs of rotor rub.
it is usually obvious on the caseback too where it has been in contact - but not so much in this particular case.
This is not cosmetic and does affect winding performance and requires putting right to avoid further damage.
It’s usually an easy fix at service.

hope that helps

subehasta · Feb 5, 2020

Thank you very much for your help!! It is fantastic to learn so much with my “silly questions” thanks to your knowledge and generosity.

It’s very clear both watches must be discarded, and now I know more things to look ay in the next ones.

Thank you very much again for your time and patience.

cristos71 · Feb 5, 2020

Peemacgee
Well, the first thing to say is that the 14393 from Alex is a real mongrel.
It has (at the very least) parts from a 564 when it should be a 561 and a case back from a 168.005 when it should be 14393.
I didn’t even look at the rest of the pics or description in his listing - just the dial.

I’ve just read the listing and it doesn’t mention the reference only the movt cal.
This is very poor from Alex as he knows only too well what he’s selling.
It has been mentioned before that you have to be very careful when buying from him.

the 168.0065 looks correct but has some rotor rub.

Edited with correct reference numbers
Edited again to express disappointment in seller of the 14393.

All good points and just to add that I notice quite a number of Alex's watches being auctioned multiple times.....I suspect there's a lot of shill bidding going on

subehasta · Feb 8, 2020

Hello. After some days working on my research, I have arrived at Alex again... and I think we have new problems...

I think I am right if I said the caseback and the front don't match: we are not supposed to find dogleg lugs in a 14393, I think...

Regarding the movement, I am right if I say everithing we see is correct? 561 is correct (it looks like other I saw), no rotor rub,...

And the dial looks like original too.

But if this guy is not mixing pictures... then he is mixing pieces from different watches.

Thanks for your help and time, as always.

wagudc · Feb 8, 2020

subehasta
Hello. After some days working on my research, I have arrived at Alex again... and I think we have new problems...

I think I am right if I said the caseback and the front don't match: we are not supposed to find dogleg lugs in a 14393, I think...

Regarding the movement, I am right if I say everithing we see is correct? 561 is correct (it looks like other I saw), no rotor rub,...

And the dial looks like original too.

But if this guy is not mixing pictures... then he is mixing pieces from different watches.

Thanks for your help and time, as always.

I am new to this as well, but I noticed that the minute hand is missing some lume and something is strange on the dial near 11 and 12. It almost looks like there was damage to the dial that someone tried to touch up. Perhaps it is something on the crystal, more pictures of the dial would help.

Peemacgee · Feb 9, 2020

subehasta
Hello. After some days working on my research, I have arrived at Alex again... and I think we have new problems...

I think I am right if I said the caseback and the front don't match: we are not supposed to find dogleg lugs in a 14393, I think...

Regarding the movement, I am right if I say everithing we see is correct? 561 is correct (it looks like other I saw), no rotor rub,...

And the dial looks like original too.

But if this guy is not mixing pictures... then he is mixing pieces from different watches.

Thanks for your help and time, as always.

you are correct in your comments about the reference and movt.

incorrect case backs do turn up on Connies quite regularly for unknown reasons (especially between doglegs and 14381/14393s it seems) and we have no way of knowing if Alex is actively pairing bits of cases from different watches or has acquired them that way.
However, no matter how it comes about, he is experienced enough to recognise the mismatch and declare it in his listings.

subehasta · Feb 9, 2020

wagudc
I am new to this as well, but I noticed that the minute hand is missing some lume and something is strange on the dial near 11 and 12. It almost looks like there was damage to the dial that someone tried to touch up. Perhaps it is something on the crystal, more pictures of the dial would help.

Thank you very much. I think the problem is in the crystal but, anyway, the caseback is enough to discard the watch.

Thanks for the lume observation too. All together is too much...

Thank you very much for your help and time

subehasta · Feb 9, 2020

Peemacgee
you are correct in your comments about the reference and movt.

incorrect case backs do turn up on Connies quite regularly for unknown reasons (especially between doglegs and 14381/14393s it seems) and we have no way of knowing if Alex is actively pairing bits of cases from different watches or has acquired them that way.
However, no matter how it comes about, he is experienced enough to recognise the mismatch and declare it in his listings.

Happy of being ok with the movement and reference!

I continue finding Alex watches as they are in auction mode and they are nice at the first look. But this inconsistencies, knowing from you that he is experienced, make me be specially cautious with his watches.

Thank you very much for all your help and time

calalum · Feb 9, 2020

Just a question. If you are well aware that the seller is trying to offload put together watches, why are you continuing to be interested in what he is offering? To me they would all be suspect. Or at the very least I would not want to transact with that seller.

subehasta · Feb 9, 2020

calalum
Just a question. If you are well aware that the seller is trying to offload put together watches, why are you continuing to be interested in what he is offering? To me they would all be suspect. Or at the very least I would not want to transact with that seller.

Hello calalum,

After the first watch, I was trying to avoid items from this seller. Continuing with my research I started to inspect a second item and realized the seller was the same and only wanted to confirm I was evaluating it in the correct way.

It's very clear now that I will be away from this seller.

Thank you very much for your help and advice.

Dan S · Feb 9, 2020

I just wanted to say that modest signs of rotor rub needn't be a reason to completely avoid a watch. The underlying issue is not usually difficult to repair, and in fact it may have already been fixed. If the watch is otherwise good, and the price is right, I wouldn't make modest rotor rub a deal-breaker.

lindo · Feb 9, 2020

I agree. I have some really nice watches with signs of past rotor rub inside the back, but the rotors must have been subsequently replaced as there is no further problem. Rotors were often replaced during services, so it would be massively overreacting to reject a watch just on account of rotor rub signs.

My first results

subehasta

chronoboy64

Peemacgee

gatorcpa

subehasta

Peemacgee

subehasta

subehasta

Peemacgee

subehasta

cristos71

subehasta

wagudc

Peemacgee

subehasta

subehasta

calalum

subehasta

Dan S

lindo

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