Military Omega?

[tennjed]

As I peruse World's Largest Garage Sale, lately looking at 30t2 watches, I not infrequently run across a description that includes "Military Syle."

The below are a couple examples:

And

In the case of the second example, I notice the collar with tabs surrounding the movement. I notice this collar on numerous other watches advertised as military/trench watches (Omega and otherwise.) The collar seems to at least represent somewhat of a theme in military/trench watches, but, as in the first example, some of these watches advertised as "military" seem to have no characteristic separating them from any other older watch.

two questions:

1. What is the purpose of the tabbed collar device surrounding the movement? Is the presence of this collar a strong indication that the watch is made to military specs.

2. Is there any standard set of characteristics that identify a watch as "military" that is generally accepted as such in the horological world?, or, is "military" just generally bandied about in association with any watch that may have been manufactured in war time, e.g. WWI or WWII?

Best,

 

[X350 XJR]

Collar has nothing to do with "military" it's a movement holder/retainer used in this type of case.

The only accepted military watch in my book would be one with provenance.

 

[Dan S]

Omega did make some watches that were issued to various militaries (CK2444, some 2179s, etc.), but the watches you showed are not military that I can see. The second one is more in a military style with lumed numerals on the dial and lumed hands, but I don't expect that it's really military. The first one isn't even faintly military-ish.

Military Omega watches will be generally be marked.

The movement holder isn't really relevant.

Edited: Mar 23, 2023

 

[watchyouwant]

Short answer : No. To both.

 

[hen]

Here is one of the treads about this interesting topic:

Military Omega's. | Omega Forums

 

[tennjed]

Thanks for the responses.

I have seen, and there are a few in the "Military Omega's" thread, watches with the upward directed arrow markings. Does this marking, if it is not forged, necessarily indicate an RAF watch?

Example:

Best

Wayne

 

[Mark020]

The triangle thing suggests MOD ownership

 

[tennjed]

Thanks, that is what I figured. It is helpful. In my own thinking, "military provenance" requires that a government purchased the item for issuance to military personnel. I guess I should have indicated this in my initial post.

Is the forging of this triangle a common thing with Omega watches?

Best,

Wayne

 

[JimInOz]

tennjed

..............Is the forging of this triangle a common thing with Omega watches?

Best,

Wayne

Yes.

 

[Dan S]

tennjed

Thanks for the responses.

I have seen, and there are a few in the "Military Omega's" thread, watches with the upward directed arrow markings. Does this marking, if it is not forged, necessarily indicate an RAF watch?

Example:

Best

Wayne

Sometimes you will see this arrow referred to as a pheon. And yes, watches are frequently tampered with to mimic military-issued examples, including repainting the dial, faking case-back engravings, etc.

 

[SpeedyPhill]

Omega did put the military arrow, aka "Broad Arrow", on the dial of their James Bond 007 Seamaster.
However, this symbol should only be used on genuine British military watches (MoD Ministry of Defence).
The letters AM would stand for Air Ministry ( RAF established on April 1, 1918 ).

 

[watchlovr]

And often you’ll see a capitol T inside a circle on the dial. Part of a UK Ministry of Defence (MOD) specification for watches.
A warning to users and servicers that tritium is present.

 

[Joe K.]

You really need to dig deep as far as research. Some watches make look like they were hand painted by a blind person, but in fact they are legit. Case in point, the 2777 Fat Arrow. here is a thread with some good pictures https://omegaforums.net/threads/2777-fat-vs-thin-arrow.120569/

 

[SOG53]

https://www.bausele.com/blogs/news/broad-arrow-fa18-watch

good review of Broad Arrow (pheon) history
It goes back to pre 1700

here is a WWI Deck watch from the Admiraltry from 1915. The dial movement and case all stamped with Broad Arrow.

And a couple of Omega examples with military markings

 

[SOG53]

A lot of the surviving WW2 RAF watches were originally white dials and were taken back in 1953 and repainted black and relumed.
The military watch thing is quite a rabbit hole generally experts only I decided….

 

[tennjed]

Thanks for the great additional responses. Being an old sailor, my interest is peaked by naval memorabilia. It seems to be a cloister within a cloister. "Rare," to an even greater degree.

 

[watchyouwant]

SOG53

A lot of the surviving WW2 RAF watches were originally white dials and were taken back in 1953 and repainted black and relumed.
The military watch thing is quite a rabbit hole generally experts only I decided….

To being more precise : the WW2 Omega Mil. Watches from the early 1940's had a alloy mid case. Prone to break the long lugs... Mvmts were fine, but cases were not . Therefore new steel cases were made in the UK , the dials cleaned and repainted and these military Omega's re-issued by the MoD in 1956. Lume was Radium ; that typical greenish colour....

 

[Dan S]

tennjed

Thanks for the great additional responses. Being an old sailor, my interest is peaked by naval memorabilia. It seems to be a cloister within a cloister. "Rare," to an even greater degree.

You will find some watches issued to Navy aviators and divers. This Benrus and its successor were issued to US Navy divers. Omega also made some military dive watches (mostly for the British Royal Navy, IIRC), but legit examples are not easy to find, and quite expensive obviously.

Edited: Mar 25, 2023

 

[buddman]

Couple points

- There is no definition of “military style” but more often than not, they have black dials or trench cases.
- A military watch is a watch that was either used by the military, or issued to military personnel. Most of the time (95%) they have engraving to the rear with information on the stock code, serial number, NATO stores number, etc, showing that they were “ issued”.
- A watch that could be bought for civilian use identical to the military issued one would not be considered military.
- the broadarrow / pheon is only for British issued watches (actually any British government issued military property) but many other countries issued watch that would be considered military (but lack the arrow because they are not British)
- as watches were used in service and then repaired etc, part swaps and mixed components are common. Manufacturers also supplied replacement dials to get rid of radium lume.
- it’s tricky world that requires some research before you buy. In Omega World, the most desirable issued watch is probably the 165.024 Seamaster 300. A more accessibly priced option is the Omega ‘53 - good chunky watches with more modern day wrist presence. Both of there are British issued. There are 5 or 6 different Omega references that were issued that come to mind.
- the best website is the Military Watch Resource - MWR - if it’s not on there it’s because it isn’t discovered yet. Best reference books are by Konrad Kirim - he does a British watches one and a German watches one.

 

[tennjed]

Thanks. I will check out MWR.

Best,

Wayne