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JwRosenthal
·Oh yeah, I forgot to say they made it 42mm.
Losing my faith: Forstner’s new Knock-off Bulova watch
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cvalue13
·Metaphor not broken at all for me, I agree with you on the intent. I share your distaste for homages, but not your distain.
I really don’t disdain “homage” watches like that. Though, it’s a totally fair read on my tone at times.
Instead, the “disdain” bleeds over from when I express distaste and am met with a cacophony of “but it’s legal!.” I do disdain that response enough to muddy the waters.
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JwRosenthal
·To cap off my attitude towards Forstner on this thread- I think their bracelets are excellent. They have some fantastic offerings made with input from the community- this community specifically! They gave us exactly what we wanted which were high quality reproductions of long out of production accessories for which originals were either scarce, delicate or fairly ill fitting for modern watches.
Them stepping into the repro watch market is an answer to a question that nobody asked.
And I know the guys from Forstner are reading this thread, and c’mon guys, did you not think there would be some mixed response to this?
Them stepping into the repro watch market is an answer to a question that nobody asked.
And I know the guys from Forstner are reading this thread, and c’mon guys, did you not think there would be some mixed response to this?
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ckhaing
·a little off track, apology first
how about those "striking similarities" items which are as far as i can recall for now
rolex -> tudor (in the old days)
omega -> tissot (also in the old days)
rr -> bentley (also in the old days, not anymore)
fender - >squier (after buyout)
gibson - > epiphone (not applicable to the originals before buyout)
steinway -> boston
each of them are own by the same parent company though, so it is relatively different concern i presume, but still that "too much similarity" always bothers me
how about those "striking similarities" items which are as far as i can recall for now
rolex -> tudor (in the old days)
omega -> tissot (also in the old days)
rr -> bentley (also in the old days, not anymore)
fender - >squier (after buyout)
gibson - > epiphone (not applicable to the originals before buyout)
steinway -> boston
each of them are own by the same parent company though, so it is relatively different concern i presume, but still that "too much similarity" always bothers me
Edited:
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Mafkees
·Watches “in the style of” have been around since the dawn of horology. How many wannabe Connie’s or wannabe DJ’s or wannabe Subs so we see from 50 years ago. Bulova themselves aren’t immune from this “flattery”
(Not my pic)
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Archer
··Omega Qualified WatchmakerAgreed. In fact, Bulova made the best DD replica there is.
This is what I was getting at previously - all brands have done this to some extent or another, so if we are going to start criticizing them, where is the line drawn? As I said, the only clear line that people here agree on is if it's legal or not. The forum is obviously free to set their own rules, but the legal boogeyman seems overkill to me. If a company is coming after a forum for allowing posts about perfectly legal products, then to me that is a company that is overly abusive and controlling.
It seems that if larger companies do these "homage" watches, they are less likely to face the same level of criticism that smaller companies face. This Bulova DD and the Seiko models that look very similar are good examples of how common this is, but they don't appear to generate the same level of scorn as the smaller companies do.
Steinhart is often cited as one of the "worst" offenders. I've serviced a few, and every one I've had in my shop has been a solid watch. They all don't necessarily look like something else - this one I don't believe it trying to emulate another watch, at least if it is they have done it so poorly that I'm not sure what the watch would be...
ETA 2824-2 inside:
After a full service, timing checks look very good:
Passes pressure test to 10 bar easily:
Certainly not "rubbish" by any measure...
For those with very delicate sensibilities, you might want to skip this next photo...
Clearly a hulk or whatever the name is "homage"...not my style at all, because the real one is ugly too. This one came in just for a quick repair - rotor would spin on manual winding. Checked the timing before I opened it:
Sellita SW200-1, and It doesn't get much better than this:
Delta of just over 5 seconds, and the average rate at +0.5 seconds per day. This exceeds COSC, METAS, and Rolex's internal "trust us" Superlative standard...reversing wheels were jammed, so cleaned the automatic and it was back working fine (common issue on the ETA and Sellita movements of this type).
Pressure test to 10 bar all good:
Could have tested both of these to deeper depths certainly, but customers didn't require it, and I'm sure they would have passed.
Would I buy either of these? Nope. Do I think less of someone who does? Nope.
Cheers, Al
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Forstnerbands
·Hi all! Great thread and I love hearing feedback particularly from Omega Forums. Happy to get into the rationale behind this watch and the decisions we made with the design.
In a nutshell: I love the Astronaut. I’d love to see a faithful Bulova Astronaut reproduction, but it hasn’t manifested and the design was discontinued/abandoned long ago.
We thought this concept was a no brainer for Forstner. Given the history the watch had with Forstner (astronauts pairing the Astronaut with the Komfit) and JBC (who made the bullet bracelet for the Astronaut), we decided to bring the design back so folks would have the opportunity to get a faithfully designed version brand new, with a killer bracelet, for an affordable price. It wears like a dream, and there’s nothing else like it on the market today.
Forstner’s goal, in general, is to bring back great vintage designs that don’t exist anymore. Until now it’s been only bracelets, but we’re trying something new. We expect there will be more to come (and indeed are working on other (completely different) watches now).
Some have asked about the lack of seconds hand. It was an intentional decision, so the hands would move smoothly around the dial and the watch would have the cleanest look possible (also, so there would be no distracting ticking). I’m very pleased with the result, though I’m not surprised that it’s a controversial choice.
Happy to answer other questions if you have them, though I don’t want to disrupt an organic discussion.
Thanks all!
In a nutshell: I love the Astronaut. I’d love to see a faithful Bulova Astronaut reproduction, but it hasn’t manifested and the design was discontinued/abandoned long ago.
We thought this concept was a no brainer for Forstner. Given the history the watch had with Forstner (astronauts pairing the Astronaut with the Komfit) and JBC (who made the bullet bracelet for the Astronaut), we decided to bring the design back so folks would have the opportunity to get a faithfully designed version brand new, with a killer bracelet, for an affordable price. It wears like a dream, and there’s nothing else like it on the market today.
Forstner’s goal, in general, is to bring back great vintage designs that don’t exist anymore. Until now it’s been only bracelets, but we’re trying something new. We expect there will be more to come (and indeed are working on other (completely different) watches now).
Some have asked about the lack of seconds hand. It was an intentional decision, so the hands would move smoothly around the dial and the watch would have the cleanest look possible (also, so there would be no distracting ticking). I’m very pleased with the result, though I’m not surprised that it’s a controversial choice.
Happy to answer other questions if you have them, though I don’t want to disrupt an organic discussion.
Thanks all!
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JwRosenthal
·Hi all! Great thread and I love hearing feedback particularly from Omega Forums. Happy to get into the rationale behind this watch and the decisions we made with the design.
In a nutshell: I love the Astronaut. I’d love to see a faithful Bulova Astronaut reproduction, but it hasn’t manifested and the design was discontinued/abandoned long ago.
We thought this concept was a no brainer for Forstner. Given the history the watch had with Forstner (astronauts pairing the Astronaut with the Komfit) and JBC (who made the bullet bracelet for the Astronaut), we decided to bring the design back so folks would have the opportunity to get a faithfully designed version brand new, with a killer bracelet, for an affordable price. It wears like a dream, and there’s nothing else like it on the market today.
Forstner’s goal, in general, is to bring back great vintage designs that don’t exist anymore. Until now it’s been only bracelets, but we’re trying something new. We expect there will be more to come (and indeed are working on other (completely different) watches now).
Some have asked about the lack of seconds hand. It was an intentional decision, so the hands would move smoothly around the dial and the watch would have the cleanest look possible (also, so there would be no distracting ticking). I’m very pleased with the result, though I’m not surprised that it’s a controversial choice.
Happy to answer other questions if you have them, though I don’t want to disrupt an organic discussion.
Thanks all!
A very classy response to a heated thread aimed at your product. Well done.
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Forstnerbands
·Now if Forstner made a 40s style watch with a bullseye or sector dial and paired it with their klip, I would be all over it. Of course it would have to be vintage sized for me, say 34mm.
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wagudc
·Stay tuned 😀 can’t say it will be that vintage sized tho. Oh, shucks - here’s a teaser cause I like you guys. Not the only version in development mind you.
This, I like. Of course even a vintage chronograph would be bigger than 34mm.
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cvalue13
·As I said, the only clear line that people here agree on is if it's legal or not.
It’s idiotic to think that legality provides any bright line, or should be recommended as a substitute for discussion about consumer judgment.
Laws don’t make bright lines, they only split babies: there’s nothing intrinsic to the age 21, whereby one day it’s illegal to drink and the next legal.
Laws are not a compass: it’s legal in the majority of US states to fire someone for being gay; in 9 other states it’s legal to keep a brown bear as a pet; slavery used to be legal.
Commercial laws only imperfectly address the most egregious of behavior, and they do their worst work in the most complicated areas: tradedress laws dictating the legality of “homage” watches are almost a paradigm example of when the law has nothing at all to do with a bright line.
In all, laws do not create normative behavior, they instead only very imperfectly (and in-permanently) attempt to address the most egregious of behaviors, and they do so by splitting babies.
Nowhere is bullying on a playground illegal.
If I say “I don’t like bullies,” and receive the answer, “bullying isn’t illegal until the bully is of a requisite age for culpability and also an unwanted physical touching has occurred, so that is a bright line” - then I know they are a bully and/or an idiot.
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Archer
··Omega Qualified WatchmakerIt’s idiotic to think that legality provides any bright line, or should be recommended as a substitute for discussion about consumer judgment.
It's even more idiotic to suggest that is what I was doing. I am simply pointing out where we do agree (as far as I know) and stating that other than this line, people will disagree...
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JwRosenthal
·Stay tuned 😀 can’t say it will be that vintage sized tho. Oh, shucks - here’s a teaser cause I like you guys. Not the only version in development mind you.
You guys found a fantastic niche with the Forstner/JBC bracelet revivals and there is a deep catalog there to play with. Making homage or retro style watches just seems a little off-brand
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cvalue13
·Thanks all!
Setting aside the “other” lines of “conversation” occurring on this thread, and back instead to the more limited nature of my original post:
In case there’s any confusion, my post is intended as emphasizing the disappointment in Forstner (and Fratello, for that matter) in line with the intended spirit (and rules) of OF…
As others have better expressed in thread, I think this is a poor execution of a poor idea, commercially, in the eyes of a segment of the vintage watch collecting community.
And since your existing product line almost exclusively appears to serve the vintage watch collecting community, this seems a strange posture to have taken, particularly for a watch of this type and at this price point.
Though as I also mentioned earlier in the thread, perhaps this is no loss to Forstner - perhaps for every bracelet not sold to someone like me, a Bulova Astro-Not can be sold to someone else, resulting in a net positive for the company.
Nothing personal, just business - in both directions.
All the above needs no response; instead that, it being my original post it would be bizarre for me to not acknowledge your input, but also re-clarify what little of this thread has to do with Forstner.
Separately though, I might offer only one minor facet of clarification in your messaging:
there’s nothing else like it on the market today.
Forstner’s goal, in general, is to bring back great vintage designs that don’t exist anymore.
This “hero story” messaging you’ve chosen is a bit too obvious in glossing over the key topic implicated by vintage ”homage” watches.
Perhaps I am in the minority insofar as wishing “homage” vintage brands would at least just call a spade a spade, and stand behind their actual commercial position: basically, that they view the available vintage pieces to be too expensive, too difficult to maintain, and perhaps even too ugly in their age, such as to create a parallel market for a “new” reproduction. That resonates, even if I chose not to participate.
But instead saying that these designs “don’t exist anymore” and that there is “nothing like it in the market” seems just a bit disingenuous given that the product is obviously copying a product that is in the market.
A wonderful one is for sale on OF right now, at a great price, and with all the other benefits of a vintage piece that offset their downsides.
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Forstnerbands
·I am truly curious, is going into watch production something that is sustainable considering how over saturated the market is with micro brands right now?
You guys found a fantastic niche with the Forstner/JBC bracelet revivals and there is a deep catalog there to play with. Making homage or retro style watches just seems a little off-brand
I suppose we’ll see! Just dipping our toes in so far, expecting small scale production numbers at least initially. We’re of course going to keep designing bracelets with lots of fun new options coming in the near future.
Making watches is a bit of a left turn, I agree, but when you think about it (at least when I think about it), this turn makes sense for the company. So many of the micro brands come without bracelets, or at least without good ones. So, the idea is to make beautiful and well-thought-out watches that we’d love to wear, and which come with great bracelets that have a connection with Forstner’s history/catalog. Also, it’s just a lot of fun, and we hope folks will have fun with it too.
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Forstnerbands
·But instead saying that these designs “don’t exist anymore” and that there is “nothing like it in the market” seems just a bit disingenuous given that the product is obviously copying a product that is in the market.
I don’t plan to go round and round with you on this, but I think you misread what I was saying - no one offers anything like this new anymore. Sure, there are vintage models, this gives the opportunity to get something new.
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Omegafanman
·I gave a nod towards content providers and journalists on an earlier post.... but also hats off to anyone taking risks to keep a business going and hopefully growing these difficult days. Nothing ventured / nothing gained and all that. Without manufacturing and innovation we are all sunk.
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Waltesefalcon
·Stay tuned 😀 can’t say it will be that vintage sized tho. Oh, shucks - here’s a teaser cause I like you guys. Not the only version in development mind you.
I'm also really happy to hear you weigh in here.
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Forstnerbands
·Who will you be sourcing movements from? Will you be going with quartz, mechanical? Are you tooling up to produce your own cases or are you outsourcing those?
I'm also really happy to hear you weigh in here.
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ckhaing
·so is the 9k gold legally gold or not?
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