Longines Flagship mystery

TropicConnie · Apr 27, 2020

Today I was delighted receive a vintage grail of mine from a fellow forum member, a vintage Longines with a black dial and arrowhead markers. It's a Reference 6817, just one digit lower than the 6818, which I believe was officially the first Longines Flagship? I contacted the Longines History Department and it seems that the Reference 6817 is not listed in their records as a Flagship model, but further research from the Longines 30L Website shows that all of this reference have Flagship dials, and all seem to have been sold in Norway. Unlike other Flagships, the case back has no medallion or other pictorial engraving, much like the early All Guard which became the Conquest in 1954.

So, after that lengthy paragraph, is the 6817 the original Flagship?

As an aside, the dial marker at 8 has a different pattern of facets compared to the others. Intentional, factory mistake, or later retrofit? It's exactly the same dimensions and angles as the others, and there's no obvious sign of tampering, so I'm not feeling it's a later addition.

OMEGuy · Apr 27, 2020

Here is one recently sold on OF. It's the same watch, isn't it?

https://omegaforums.net/threads/1956-longines-flagship-black-dial-ref-6817-cal-30l-serviced.112497/

Dan S · Apr 27, 2020

OMEGuy
Here is one recently sold on OF for comparison:

https://omegaforums.net/threads/1956-longines-flagship-black-dial-ref-6817-cal-30l-serviced.112497/

That is apparently the same watch, based on the pattern of missing lume in the hands.

TropicConnie · Apr 27, 2020

One and the same

OMEGuy · Apr 27, 2020

I wonder if the position of the "Flagship" font is supposed to be period correct and why it is printed in white. Also, no "SWISS" or "SWISS MADE" on the dial?

Do you have better close up pictures of the dial?

SportChief · Apr 27, 2020

The fact that they were only sold in Norway makes me think they were one-off's that were shipped to their agent in Norway. They may have been cobbled together from various parts that Longines had on had to make a unique reference batch to fulfill an order for that agent.

Radiumpassion · Apr 27, 2020

SportChief
The fact that they were only sold in Norway makes me think they were one-off's that were shipped to their agent in Norway. They may have been cobbled together from various parts that Longines had on had to make a unique reference batch to fulfill an order for that agent.

The norwegian agent, Mr. Hausammann was born in Switzerland and worked
for Longines so who knows😉

Here is a norwegian ad from early 1960s

SportChief · Apr 27, 2020

Radiumpassion
The norwegian agent, Mr. Hausammann was born in Switzerland and worked
for Longines so who knows😉

Here is a norwegian ad from early 1960s

What a great resource! It's rare to find ads featuring Sport Chiefs. As you can imagine I am partial to the collection 😉. If I'm not mistaken, the "Sport Chief" and "Jamboree" names were only used in countries where he was the agent (Norway and Sweden). My guess is that this watch was another of Messrs. Hausammann's projects.

TropicConnie · Apr 28, 2020

I love period advertising like that! Regarding the lack of any Swiss Made designation on the dial, I've never seen this reference with it, nor any other Longines that was invoiced to the aforementioned Messrs. Hausammann. The dial is definitely original, no way a non factory job would look this crisp under my microscope.

See for example:
https://longines30l.com

http://www.vintage-watches-collection.com/watch/longines/longines-flagship-steel-bombee-lugs-1957/

OMEGuy · Apr 28, 2020

TropicConnie
I love period advertising like that! Regarding the lack of any Swiss Made designation on the dial, I've never seen this reference with it, nor any other Longines that was invoiced to the aforementioned Messrs. Hausammann. The dial is definitely original, no way a non factory job would look this crisp under my microscope.

See for example:
https://longines30l.com

http://www.vintage-watches-collection.com/watch/longines/longines-flagship-steel-bombee-lugs-1957/

And you don't care the "Flagship" font is printed in white instead of gilt and not positioned near the second counter subdial (like in the advertising)?

I'm not deeply into Longines, but this makes me wonder if the dial is genuine or not. The incorrect marker at 8 o'clock is also an indicator something might have happened to the dial?

This said, I can't find any other watch with this reference and comparable dial anywhere.

I don't want to be a fun spoiler, I just wanted to make sure you are aware.

yako54 · Apr 28, 2020

I was the original owner of this watch. It's true that the reference 6817 is rarely seen among the flagship labeled watches, but those exist. I bought it in a small Swedish auction house and it appeared to be a one owner watch, not running with a really messed up strap. The flagship font looks correct to me, when you compare it to the common 30L flagships e.g. ref. 102. I have no other conclusion than that this model left the Longines factory with the Flagship label.

OMEGuy · Apr 28, 2020

yako54
I was the original owner of this watch. It's true that the reference 6817 is rarely seen among the flagship labeled watches, but those exist. I bought it in a small Swedish auction house and it appeared to be a one owner watch, not running with a really messed up strap. The flagship font looks correct to me, when you compare it to the common 30L flagships e.g. ref. 102. I have no other conclusion than that this model left the Longines factory with the Flagship label.

And in your picture, once again the "Flagship" sails near the second subcounter...

yako54 · Apr 28, 2020

OMEGuy
And in your picture, once again the "Flagship" sails near the second subcounter...

Yes that's obvious. I made my conclusion and shared it above. What is yours?

Screenshot_20200428-230324_Samsung Internet.jpg

all pictures courtesy of Longines30L.com

TropicConnie · Apr 28, 2020

OMEGuy
And you don't care the "Flagship" font is printed in white instead of gilt and not positioned near the second counter subdial (like in the advertising)?

I'm not deeply into Longines, but this makes me wonder if the dial is genuine or not. The incorrect marker at 8 o'clock is also an indicator something might have happened to the dial?

This said, I can't find any other watch with this reference and comparable dial anywhere.

I don't want to be a fun spoiler, I just wanted to make sure you are aware.

I don't care at all that the model name and manufacturer logo are different colours. Ever seen a gilt dial Rolex?

The incorrect marker, as far as I'm concerned, is the only indication something may have happened to the dial, and considering it's exactly the same size and shape as every other arrowhead on the dial I'm pretty confident it isn't a later repair. The chances of a repairman having a dial marker in his inventory, potentially years after the watch was produced, that matches in all ways but one seems far lower than the chances of a manufacturer having a few similar yet minutely different dial markers at the time of manufacture.

If this is a redial, it's the most precise redial I've ever seen.

Under 30X magnification:

And under 60x magnification:

I'm not unaware and I don't appreciate you implying I am. I weighed up each conclusion carefully. Maybe you should stick to your Omegas, apparently you haven't seen enough Longines watches to make a contribution beyond playing devil's advocate.

Rumar89 · Apr 28, 2020

yako54
Yes that's obvious. I made my conclusion and shared it above. What is yours?

all pictures courtesy of Longines30L.com

@yako54, I checked the Longines30L site and didn’t see any 6817’s with the high Flagship. Did I miss some or are these other references?

TropicConnie · Apr 29, 2020

Rumar89
@yako54, I checked the Longines30L site and didn’t see any 6817’s with the high Flagship. Did I miss some or are these other references?

Off the top of my head I can't identify all three shared by yako54, but I know the one in the middle is a Ref. 6818 based on the distinctive lug design. A quick search on the 30L website shows that reference had either the name above the subdial or below the logo, so following that logic it's not out of the question that a 6817 could also have the same variations. My 6817 is significantly earlier than their earliest recorded 6817, from February 1958. For now, I'm yet to be convinced the dial is not original and thus the unusual hour marker is in my opinion a manufacturing quirk.

Rumar89 · Apr 29, 2020

I wasn’t really making a judgment about your example, @TropicConnie. I had looked a couple days ago and just couldn’t remember. I also know first hand the quirks of Longines in this period. For instance, the 9025 vs 9027 thing. Longines archive isn’t bulletproof.

I’m pretty convinced by the print quality that the Flagship is completely legit, that’s quite hard to fake.

skaare · Oct 23, 2021

My Longines 6817 2 27, dated 1959 or 1958, bought by my great-grandfather in southern Norway.

Longines Flagship mystery

TropicConnie

OMEGuy

Dan S

TropicConnie

OMEGuy

SportChief

Radiumpassion

SportChief

TropicConnie

OMEGuy

yako54

OMEGuy

yako54

TropicConnie

Rumar89

TropicConnie

Rumar89

skaare

Similar threads

Longines Flagship manual chronometer year of manufacture 1957

Longines Flagship Automatic

Longines Flagship, Reference 1403 “Big Ship”

Longines Flagship Heritage 60th Anniversary, ref. L4.817.4.76.2

Research Delerium reverse image and mystery dial watches

1957 Longines Flagship 102