Hello all,

Conventionally, the understanding was that there were two variations of the 30L of which @Tony C. provides a great summary here:

https://omegaforums.net/threads/longines-30l-chronometre.30166/

In short, the first version is the standard movement, which comprises the vast majority of Longines’ 30L production. It’s hallmarks are a flat balance spring, elongated regulator arm and slightly longer balance cock wing (see below, photo credit @Tony C.).



This stands in contrast to the second Longines 30L movement, which was commonly understood to be the chronometer version. This version has a truncated regulator arm and balance cock wing to allow for a balance spring with a Breguet overcoil (see below, photo credit @Tony C.).



Originally, at least in my interpretation, the Longines collector community assumed that the standard 30L movement was used for non-chronometer Longines, while the version fitted with the Breguet overcoil was used solely for the quite rare, chronometer certified versions.

As Havi at Longines30L.com first discovered, and I subsequently had Longines’ wonderful Brand Heritage Department confirm, this conventional understanding is not the case. At least some movements fitted with the Breguet overcoil were not chronometer certified. The vast majority of these appear to be refs 6691 & 6692 shipped to Girod in Spain, although Longines did confirm that some of these non-chronometer Breguet movements were sent to other markets.

So at this point, we have confirmed 3 versions of the 30L:

1. Standard
2. Chronometer Breguet
3. Non-chronometer Breguet

Which brings me to this puzzle that recently popped up on EBay:






At first glance, this appears to be a franken since the movement doesn’t align with what we understand to be the hallmarks of a chronometer 30L (namely a Breguet overcoil). A couple of things, however, made me think this was unlikely:

- The inscription on the caseback relates to a headmaster of Eltham College (Geoffrey Turberville) who retired in 1959.
- The serial number also aligns roughly with that date.
- Havi had previously told me that he had seen 30L chronometers, originating in the U.K., that had the standard balance spring (although I had been unable to find an example online).

So, I took a gamble and Longines confirmed that this is indeed a chronometer, invoiced to Baume in the U.K. in February 1959.



So now we have 4 variations of the 30L:

1. Standard
2. Chronometer Standard
3. Chronometer Breguet
4. Non-chronometer Breguet

What still baffles me is why the variations? Does anyone else know of a movement that saw this during the time period?

 

I am skeptical that the latter is fully original, and unless Ms. Bochud is able to confirm that some chronometre versions were delivered without the overcoil and associated regulator arm, will remain so.

 

That is certainly possible, although on a watch that in every other respect appears completely original I don’t think it’s particularly probable that the entire balance cock was removed and nothing else was altered.

 

The information presented on the Ranfft site for the the Longines 23Z movement has the following:

Remarks
Europe: bridges not bevelled, flat hairspring, gold lever, Super-Shock-Resist
U.S.A.: bridges bevelled, Breguet hairspring, ratchet wheel mounted with washer

Maybe Longines has a similar policy with the 30L.

 

The movement is correct as is. I think this also answers the question as to why they dropped the Breguet overcoil; they discovered the movement was accurate enough with the standard balance spring.

 

3 of the 4 variations represented. Only missing the Breguet Chronometer.

1.Standard 30L, 18k yellow gold, 36mm, invoiced to Panama in 1960
2. Standard Chronometer 30L, Stainless, 36mm, invoiced to the U.K. in 1959
3. Non-Chronometer Breguet 30L, 18k rose gold, 37.5mm, invoiced to Spain in 1956




Bonus points if you can name the artist.

 

Hi Folks,

This is my first post on this forum, and I hope it may be a good. I have come in to my possession a 1958 Longines Flagship Chronometre. My initial research of the watch led me to a few really good websites, and forums about the timepiece. I was reading this forum, and I believe I have the missing link you are looking for.

My example, is a Longines calibre 30L Breguet Chronometre. The regulator tail has been truncated to fit the over oil hairspring, and the balance cock shortened. Also, this watch was fitted with a special balance wheel. The watch is 35.5mm in diameter, and is super comfortable on the wrist. Dial condition is great, and have nice even patina for its age. The 'Ghostship' on the caseback is faded off to due either a polish, or general wear. Overall it is excellent condition.

I have sent an extract from the archives request to Longines Brand Heritsge, and they have been really helpful so. I am eagerly waiting for their final response. I have also got in to contact with watchmakers, and recent sellers of this peice as well.

I cant over the beauty, and finish for its age. The 30L calibre ticks away only losing -1+2 seconds a day! Super accurate so far and you can hear it from across the room. Thanks

Kind regards,

HalifaxWatchGuy

 

So you won that auction. Congrats on the pick up!

These are really great watches and, as I’m sure you’ve deduced through your research, relatively uncommon. Unlike Rolex or Omega, Longines didn’t focus on large scale chronometer production until the late sixties with the introduction of the 431 Utra-Chron. We had a former member who was of the opinion that these 30Ls were some of the finest hand wound calibers of the era.

Is this your first foray into vintage? Or are you adding this to a collection?

 

Thanks! So you must have been the other bidder then through Andrew Smith and Sons in Winchester? It was really under the radar tbh. I was really surprised actually, and thought I could get a better price. Super happy about it though.

 

Various movements in the "vintage period" have suffered small modifications throughout production. (usually we're talking about movements being made in large numbers and over many years and 30L is one of their most succesful movements)

Basically you can have one caliber but a few sub-variants with small and quite possibly barely noticeable modifications.

My guess is that they'd make slight modifications for various technical reasons. Maybe they found that a current design would be prone to certain errors so they'd go ahead and fix it.

Speaking of Longines, I was once working on a one hundread year old Longines pocket watch and I had to replace the old balance staff which was broken. Upon doing some research I find out that that movement came with 2 variants of balance staffs. (an earlier one and a late one) I order one from the only avialable source and, obviously, it wasn't the one that I needed but I managed to make it work with some slight modifications. (a hole basically needed to be slightly enlarged so that the staff could fit; the other dimensions were fine)

 

I dunno that I would call having or not having a balance spring with a Breguet overcoil as a small modification. Indeed, from the information provided by the Longines Heritage Department it seems the Breguet overcoil examples are limited to fairly early in the movement’s production run and had been phased out by 1959-1960. Why that is the case is pure speculation, although I think it is instructive that the watches were still able to meet chronometer standards with the flat balance spring.

With that said, the working assumption in the Longines community, with respect to the 30L, had always been (at least from my research) Breguet overcoil = chronometer, non-Breguet = non-chronometer. This just isn’t the case.

 

By comparing the different sub-variants and their serial numbers. Does it appear as if each sub-variant was produced vor a while and then they would switch to a different one or is it all random ?

I know that back then they would sometimes do some things differently for legal reaasons (taxes, customs, etc.) such as not disclosing the real number of jewels on the dial/back but I can't think of something else other than technical reasons for such modifications.

Is it possible that some markets would receive "better" movements because of better purchasing power/higher standards ? Like it is nowadays in some cases with quality standards in western vs. eastern europe for example...

 

It appears that the Breguet overcoil was phased out in 1959-1960.

From the examples that I’ve seen (and this is obviously a limited sample size), watches that were either chronometer certified or would have been the top of the line non-chronometer certified (oversized, 18k) were outfitted with the Breguet movement until the phase out took place. We know both versions of the movement existed at initial production.

 

As per my research there were only 200 special Breguet overcoil calibres made, that were sent to the UK from 1958-1960. Baume was the agent at the time for Longines.

Longines did submit an observatory chronometre for trials, and competition.

Not my first foray into vintage watches. I have my late father's 1969 Rolex 1503 Date 14k, and now a vintage Zenith Surf SS with a 2572pc movement 28800vph. They are both nice editions to an otherwise modern collection. Oh, and I cant forget about my 1967 Omega 830 calibre pocket watch.

 

Longines has confirmed several non-chronometer Breguet 30Ls sent to Girod in Spain in the mid 50’s. Mine is an example in the original case and Longines30L.com has a few that have unfortunately been recased.

 

I will post my results as soon as I hear back from Longines. My excitement, and curiosity about this is overwhelming. I get my Flagship from the UK, and I curious to know if it was from the original owner. Hope to get service records as well.

I have messaged longines30L.com about a few inquires, but not had a response yet.

Sending to my vintage watch specialist in Toronto to have it looked at, serviced and regulated.

 

Halifax, I didn’t realize you hadn’t heard from Longines. I have the archive info on your watch, I got it before the auction. Happy to post it or DM to you.

 

Greetings from snowy, and cold Halifax, Nova Scotia Canada!

Got my extract from the archives in the mail today from Longines. Quicker than I thought, and very good customer service on their part. Longines is a class act. Growing more fondly of this peice, but I dont know how well it will fit in to my collection. Thank you for all the info this forum has provided so far. Love the history, and everything associated with finding out a little bit of history in the watch community.

 

Hello everyone,

I just found this post and wanted to add a little contribution. It reminded me of a real curiosity I have in my little collection :
About ten years ago I bought this Longines 30L because of its overcoil (I knew it was a rare feature on this calibre). When I first saw it I was sure it was recased, because I had only seen this feature on chronometers and gold cases. Plus you can all see it doesn't have its original hands, making me even more suspicious...
So I was quite surprised when Longines confirmed it actually was its original case and dial. The serial number corresponds according to their archives to a reference 9999 sold in 1962 to Danero, their agent in Uruguay.
Makes me wonder how this better finished movement ended in such a simple watch. The early serial number makes me think they still had some left uncased in the early sixties so the lasts of the batch may have been put in "ordinary" watches (i.e. without massive gold cases or chronometer certification).

Speaking of better finish, there's one other slight variation between the 30Ls that takes a better eye to notice : some have their regulator's edges beveled, others are cut straight. This apply to flat spirals, the overcoiled ones seems all beveled. Not sure but I wonder if the nicer beveled ones were dedicated to gold cases...

On a personal note, I don't quite buy that flat spirals where as accurate as overcoils. Longines were still using the later ones in their observatory chronometers up until the end of competitions in the end of the 1960s, so they were still much in favor for tight regulation. But flat spirals were accurate enough for the much larger tolerances of the Bureaux Officiels, and above all were cheaper to produce. It's interesting to note that most of the major manufacturers got rid of the overcoil around the mid to late 1950s, like Omega, Zenith, Eterna, JLC, etc. and this is all linked with a decrease of finish quality in their higher end range : their movements got less bevels, less polish, less elegant bridges and various decorating touches. It seems obvious to me they were all cutting costs down.

Anyway here's some pictures of this curious ref. 9999 with a breguet spiral (and yes I know, I have to change those horrible hands one day !)